Black Panther 1,566 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 KM asked a while back if there was anything we would like to ask YNZ. as a result I asked the maritime rescue centre for a list of boats leaving NZ that needed rescuing. I also asked customs for total numbers leaving. This was a bigger deal than expected and I had to go through the OIA . But finally got 14 years of records. From 2005 through 2017 inclusive 7995 recreational vessels departed NZ. 14 called for help. Or 0.175%. 6 were NZ Reg (had cat 1). 0.34% 8 Were foreign flags 0.13% So cat one inspected boats were nearly three times more likely to require assistance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beccara 25 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Can you show your working BP? 14 boats needing help, 6 Cat 1 NZ Flag and 8 overseas flag's would seem to indicate NZ Flagged Cat 1's only made up 42% of rescues or 0.075% of all leaving vessels. Overseas flagged were 0.1% of all leaving vessels and 58% of all rescues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
darkside 61 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Lies, damn lies and statistics I think is the saying. Most of the foreign flags had sailed a long way to be able depart from NZ. Some a very long way. A couple of points to ponder.... 1. how many of the foreign flags that needed help would have failed Cat one 2. how experienced were the crew on the NZ flagged boats that needed assistance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,566 Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 Doing it from phone sorry. But NZ flags were 1767 in total. 6 rescues Foreign flags 6228 total. 8 rescues. Combined 7995 departures. 14 rescues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,566 Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 A couple of points to ponder.... 1. how many of the foreign flags that needed help would have failed Cat one 2. how experienced were the crew on the NZ flagged boats that needed assistance[/quote Yes. It is up to us how we interpret the results. IMO Nearly all the offshore boats would pass cat one, though many of the skippers may be pissed at the cost and bother. Some of the NZ crews were very experienced. I agree experience is a bigger factor than hardware. But the NZ regs make no allowance for experienced crew. Maybe make it optional if the skipper has over x offshore miles? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Freedom GBE 27 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I personaly wouldnt jump on a boat, off shore without CAT 1. If an adult wants to go of on his own without all the safety gear, is willing to pay for a rescue or doesnt want to be found if he gets in trouble. Let them go, good luck. No diiferent than base jumping or other extreme sports which I like watching. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,566 Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 That's your call. Any responsible crew should satisfy themselves as to the boat and the skipper. But you just said you wouldn't sail with me on BP. Last trip I told the crew exactly where I varied from cat one and why. They were happy. We left. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin McCready 83 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 David, I'd be interested to hear in detail how and why your boat differs from Cat 1. (BTW in your stats, you may have a sampling problem because within the NZ rescue area boats with NZ Cat 1 are likely to be more numerous. You may also have a correlation problem: correlation is not causation.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 (BTW in your stats, you may have a sampling problem because within the NZ rescue area boats with NZ Cat 1 are likely to be more numerous. You may also have a correlation problem: correlation is not causation.) No, Cause that is boats departing NZ, therefore all boats covered in the stats transit the same SAR area. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 KM asked a while back if there was anything we would like to ask YNZ. as a result I asked the maritime rescue centre for a list of boats leaving NZ that needed rescuing. I also asked customs for total numbers leaving. This was a bigger deal than expected and I had to go through the OIA . But finally got 14 years of records. Good work on actually going to the time and effort to get the stats. Can't argue with facts (although it would seem some will try to). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fish 0 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 David, I'd be interested to hear in detail how and why your boat differs from Cat 1. His boat is made of plywood, which is a material deemed by the establishment to be inferior, prone to failure, and consequently banned. Refer the Infidel case. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 640 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Thanks "BP" so its safe to assume,by the figures,we are safer going offshore than those inshore ??coastguard helped 6797 get safely home in 2017. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,566 Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share Posted October 13, 2018 It is true correlation is not causation. But in round numbers NZ boats are 1/4 of departures and 1/3 of rescues so we are nearly 3 times as likely to need rescue. So let's look at why that may be. One possibility is the experience filter on the foreign boats. Another possibility is cat one is counter productive, or at least of negligible value. I'd love to hear other possibilities. Kevin. I'm very close to cat one. Last trip my flares expired a week before I left. I didn't replace them as I knew I would be 2-3 years before I went again. Also if I race I need gz curve at some cost to tell me something I already know. I don't like liferafts much but no one is working on a better solution and I don't have the time and money to do it myself. I can't stand SSB and carried smartphones before they were legal. I would be quite happy now with one of these new toys like iridium go and may well decide on that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Freedom GBE 27 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Agree KM Would I go on Frank, the 20m Orma with the current skipper, without a CAT 1 and race to Fiji. Hell yes. The risk is worth the reward. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 640 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 1/4 of nz departures results in 1/3 rescue why? inexperienced crews/skippers due to yachts being inexpensive,which leads to my thinking that every man thinks he can go offshore with no worries,just need to get cat1 and away little or no sailing experience. We have all heard the stories of,mate she was a cake ride to fiji etc Would I contemplate going offshore in my own vessel without going with an experienced crew/skipper first?NO Perhaps there needs to be some form of bond/insurance to cover rescues?no I do not think so gives the airforce something to do and lets the navy put in to practice what they have been taught Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin McCready 83 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Thanks David for the Cat 1 response. I wouldn't set out without a liferaft. The other possibility in the stats (and I'm not arguing either way, just setting out some stats possibilities) is that the small number of rescues isn't enough to be statistically significant (ie not enough to draw firm conclusions). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Saturday Night Special Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 His boat is made of plywood, which is a material deemed by the establishment to be inferior, prone to failure, and consequently banned. Refer the Infidel case. That was because the CYC didnt want their boats beaten by a cheap quick boat.On this side of the ditch the commodore of the Squadron Jack Brooke deemed it unsuitable for boat construction latter proving himself wrong by designing the sunburst. 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,566 Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share Posted October 13, 2018 Also true. Unfortunately the rescue center wasn't able to provide anything pre 2005. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,566 Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share Posted October 13, 2018 One more to add to the list. The silly how to get rescued course. Once is enough. How about a how not to need rescuing in the first place course? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 355 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Interesting numbers I’m getting ready to get cat 1 next winter, after sailing 15000nm back to NZ I need to now add the things I didn’t bother with coming the other way Storm sails. Have leisure furl main, furling Genoa and heavyweather Jib that has soft hanks to removable inner forstay. Plus large diesel (110 hp) Life raft. is 11 years old now so 20% more to replace than do the big 10yr service, no brainer as new raft will have 3yr services so will get two trips out of each service Wondering if I can get cat 1 as a powerboat as we carry enough fuel to motor to the islands then I wouldn’t need to splash out on storm sails that will probably never see the light of day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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