Barriers to Participation / Crewing

[Fish 0]

Found this little clause in a NoR:

 

3.2   To be eligible to compete in this event each entrant and crew member shall be a financial member of a club recognised by the entrant and crew member's national authority.

 

This is a new event and is billed as a "launching pad" for bigger offshore races. Its not un-noticed that the offshore fleets have been dwindling, can't understand why?

 

Clauses like this just make it that much tougher for the average Joe to meet the entry criteria. I'm sure that the majority of crew for this type of event are probably already members of yacht clubs, but the last few crew probably aren't, i.e. the people that want to try it out, get into the sport etc, have to jump through extra hoops, hmmm, or maybe go and take up some other sport.

 

There are other entry requirements that are a hassle (like 1/3rd of crew having current sea survival), but can be justified by increasing / improving safety. This requirement only lines Yachting NZ's pockets.

 

I started yacht racing doing overnight / multi-day races (JOG / RORC) and if I had to be a YC member to jump on a boat, I just would have gone hiking or mountain climbing instead.

 

NZ is desperately short of overnight / multi-day races that require a watch system and for people to stand watches, eat and sleep while underway. With that people get exposed to all the pleasures of sailing, racing through a starry night, dawn on the water, doing some actual navigation, managing rest and food. 

 

This is a new event, but unfortunately with requirements like this it just makes it that much harder to get involved.

[Clipper 343]

I like the criteria. Join a club. Support those that run the events.

 

I see your point, but there are cheap options and if it is a  big multi day race, you aren't going with someone who hasn't sailed before.  

 

Enough bludging, join a club.

[chariot 242]

I don't race any more, but when I did, probably only half my crew would have been club members. I think that would be common practice with a lot of boats. It's hard enough to get regular crew as it is. Isn't that why short handed racing has become so popular?

[armchairadmiral 411]

Yes this clause killed our participation in all races that required it. Hard enough to get crew without this impost. So those regattas/ events  lost an entry fee plus all the add ons. Just another reason for the fall off in entry numbers. So for the "compulsion" brigade  I'll warrant that the fees they got from compulsory join up didn't come anywhere near the fees they lost. And it's cumulative like Fish says. The crew just do other things more important than joining a YC that they have no interest in joining.

[Y88 5241 25]

Try go do any other sport without paying a fee/membership. Play golf without paying green fees? Play in a hockey team without joining a club? Why is sailing any different? 

 

Use the facilities and resources but don't want to become a member? Not fair on those members who do pay fees, this is why memberships etc keep going up, as we are expecting more but less people becoming actual members but happy to drink in the bar etc. There are plenty of options to become a member with payment options etc. Why is sailing any different to other sports?

[Clipper 343]

Try go do any other sport without paying a fee/membership. Play golf without paying green fees? Play in a hockey team without joining a club? Why is sailing any different? 

 

Use the facilities and resources but don't want to become a member? Not fair on those members who do pay fees, this is why memberships etc keep going up, as we are expecting more but less people becoming actual members but happy to drink in the bar etc. There are plenty of options to become a member with payment options etc. Why is sailing any different to other sports?

 

Yep, that covers it pretty well.  

 

There are pretty cheap options for clubs, like NZMYC, SSANZ etc.  

[Fish 0]

Yep, that covers it pretty well.  

 

There are pretty cheap options for clubs, like NZMYC, SSANZ etc.  

Just curious Clipper, how many crew do you normally sail with?

 

And when was the last time you took on a newby?

[Clipper 343]

I only race my current boat with 2. Used to race my old boat (Voom)with 3.  On Voom I had a few newbys on board, at least one for a whole season. He joined a club (But to be honest he probably would have anyway).  

 

I always encouraged my crew to join a club if they weren't a member. Made Dad join for instance, so he could race SSANZ races with me.

 

Back to your original post, what race are you talking about?

 

Making people be members for a rum race of Wednesday night is a bit ridiculous perhaps, but if its a big race, you just wont have newbies on board?

[darkside 61]

I haven't raced for years but how about at least 65% of the crew have to be club members?

So all short handers have to be members but everyone else can take one (or more on big crews) newbie to give them a taste without joining a club first.

[Fish 0]

The Akarana 350.

I've no problem with short handed events requiring both crew to be members, the numbers of people wanting to race short handed that aren't members will be very low.

 

I don't think club membership is any measure of sailing experience though. And on a big race, especially on a bigger boat, there is a range of experience and skills required. The term 'rail bait' didn't come from nowhere...

There is always the senior crew / watch leaders / navigators, then there are the newbies / rail bait / grinders etc. You can't have a crew full of skippers and navigators...

 

Last time I managed a White Island entry between half and two thirds of the crew wouldn't have been YNZ subs payers, but there was a good range of experience onboard, for example a student doing his 'officer of the watch' training or what ever it is for commercial shipping (STW95?). He was starting a career at sea, but being a student didn't have $$$ for YNZ subs, was an experienced dinghy sailor and a real asset onboard.

 

In terms of taking newbies on big races, my very first offshore race in the UK, I jumped on a boat sight unseen on a Friday afternoon, still in my work gear. Race across the English Channel to St Peter Port, almost got run down by a freighter in the Needles channel, saw the green flash at sunset, demonstrated I could keep the boat moving upwind in the light (driving), had a beer in a foreign port, saw a pod of dolphins, had a mechanical breakdown that we fixed and then rescued a cruising yacht whose engine had died in a calm in the shipping channel off Brandle Bank as a rather large cruise ship was coming up heading for Southampton Water. I was absolutely hooked, and went on to do offshore racing at every opportunity, on any boat going.

 

The skipper took a chance on me, I took a chance on them. Sometimes in life you need to take a chance. If this rule was in place in the UK, I'd never have gotten into racing. Round the cans is boring sh*t compared to "offshore adventures". Windward leewards don't give you experience for multi-day races.

 

My main problem with this rule is it serves no purpose. If it's about revenue, increase the entry fee for crew numbers or boat size. BoI sailing week do this, it is perfectly logical. This rule just makes it tougher for any average Joe boat to meet the entry requirements. It stops newbies getting into the sport or getting offshore experience.

[Clipper 343]

It all depends which side you look from.  You make perfect sense Fish.  I believe I do too (I may not, and you may disagree).

 

If you take it to an extreme though, where only skippers are members, clubs would be small and they will die and then no races?

 

I basically just dont see it as a big deal.  Join a club. the cheapest you can find if money is an issue. Ideally the one you race with though.

 

I hope to do the race (Akarana 350) if I have my engine sorted, and the costs for me personally, with entry fees, lift and wash, provisioning are a lot more than the $65 it would cost a crew member to join a club.

[harrytom 642]

Join a club,Hmm. yes I can see merit but clubs need to get real on membership fees,most clubs have a period 6/12 months as associate then must become full members or not use the club.But with entry numbers down,you would think along as the yacht can race who cares if club members or not as money still crosses the bar. Being boat less at the moment I could not just justify membership fee as though a boat owner,so clubs need to have a crew membership which entitles to use bar on race days but not eligible to vote?

[raz88 96]

Join a club,Hmm. yes I can see merit but clubs need to get real on membership fees,most clubs have a period 6/12 months as associate then must become full members or not use the club.But with entry numbers down,you would think along as the yacht can race who cares if club members or not as money still crosses the bar. Being boat less at the moment I could not just justify membership fee as though a boat owner,so clubs need to have a crew membership which entitles to use bar on race days but not eligible to vote?

Pretty sure at least Richmond and rnzys both have this option, probably others too.

[Fish 0]

Richmond's annual crew subs is $125. My club's associate member is $160 (including joining fee and subs).

 

It is just another barrier to entry. A barrier, in that it is something that must be overcome in order to enter. Long term, this is bad for the sport, it prevents access into the sport. Yes, once you are into the sport, for sure join a club.

 

Combined with the sea survival requirement, this will create an ever dwindling pool of offshore experienced crew. 

Scenario, lets say you've got a mid sized boat and enough experienced crew to sail the race. You have space onboard. Do you take a newby or a mate that is interested, lets say someone that is physically capable and used to outdoors, physical endeavors. They aren't a club member, so cough up $125 to join Richmond to come along and see if you like offshore racing, oh, but the one extra crew puts you over the 30% sea survival, so you don't take the newbie, even as rail bait they get experince, but they can't even come on the boat.

 

Alternative scenario, you want to go as a crew of 4, and have 4 good experienced crew keen. It would make equal watches of 2 on 2 off. These crew have done plenty of offshore, but their sea survival is more than 5 years old, they have families and can't spare a whole weekend re-training in order to spend a whole long weekend racing...  So you only have 1 crew with current sea survival, so you race as 3 and are overall a weaker crew for complying with the regulations.

 

Long term, the experience pool diminishes, it leads to un-intended consequences, and is bad for the sport. Weaker crews go out, and very few, if any, people are introduced into offshore racing.

[Fish 0]

Yes this clause killed our participation in all races that required it. Hard enough to get crew without this impost. So those regattas/ events  lost an entry fee plus all the add ons. Just another reason for the fall off in entry numbers. So for the "compulsion" brigade  I'll warrant that the fees they got from compulsory join up didn't come anywhere near the fees they lost. And it's cumulative like Fish says. The crew just do other things more important than joining a YC that they have no interest in joining.

As Armchair says, this is having a real impact on boats wanting to enter.

I predict there will be a reasonable fleet in the Akarana 350, but it will be either the premier offshore boats (such as Ran Tan and the likes) or guys qualifying for the RNI. There will be very few, if any, 'normal' boats that just want to try it out, boats that have done plenty of Gulf racing and several Coastals, and want to try something a bit more challenging. Kind of what I'd call the grass roots boats, fairly modest, a bit older, with owners keen for new challenges (but don't want to do the RNI 2 up)

[Y88 5241 25]

Found this little clause in a NoR:

 

3.2   To be eligible to compete in this event each entrant and crew member shall be a financial member of a club recognised by the entrant and crew member's national authority.

 

This is a new event and is billed as a "launching pad" for bigger offshore races. Its not un-noticed that the offshore fleets have been dwindling, can't understand why?

 

Clauses like this just make it that much tougher for the average Joe to meet the entry criteria. I'm sure that the majority of crew for this type of event are probably already members of yacht clubs, but the last few crew probably aren't, i.e. the people that want to try it out, get into the sport etc, have to jump through extra hoops, hmmm, or maybe go and take up some other sport.

 

There are other entry requirements that are a hassle (like 1/3rd of crew having current sea survival), but can be justified by increasing / improving safety. This requirement only lines Yachting NZ's pockets.

Not trying to side with Yachting NZ, however this NOR is issued by a yacht club (RAYC in this case) They are the club enforcing it not YNZ.

[chariot 242]

More restrictions, more hoops to jump through = smaller fleets.

[Gappy 9]

Once again another lot of moaning people.

 

Instead of moaning why not get out of your chair join a yacht club get involved and help grow the sport that you are complaining is declining.

 

Yacht clubs struggle for numbers and volunteers yet you won't join but want to rely on them running events for you but you don't want to support them.

 

For a crew to join a club is alot cheaper than been an owner paying to run, berth, entry fees.

[Fish 0]

Once again another lot of moaning people.

 

Instead of moaning why not get out of your chair join a yacht club get involved and help grow the sport that you are complaining is declining.

 

Yacht clubs struggle for numbers and volunteers yet you won't join but want to rely on them running events for you but you don't want to support them.

 

For a crew to join a club is alot cheaper than been an owner paying to run, berth, entry fees.

Get your facts straight Gappy, I am a member of a yacht club. And how do you know what I do and don't do for my club?

Yacht clubs struggle for numbers because they are putting so many barriers infront of people to get involved. In case you are too thick to read Gappy, I'm pointing out that this particular club is making it too hard to support them.

 

Why don't you engage your brain before shooting your mouth off?

[Gappy 9]

Fish did i name you i can read so pull your head in.

 

I don't know see how making crew join a club is a barrier the club is still providing a service to your crew they want to go racing they want the bar after racing for a drink. A club doesn't make enough to run on just membership of the owner and races fees i know from fact so clubs ask thst people participating in their events are members of them or other affiliated clubs.

 

As discussed above people playing rugby soccer etc you have to be a member. These clubs all struggle as well so if they said non members can play how would they survive.

 

Paying a membership fee is small change compared to the overall cost of owning a boat and going racing.