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Barriers to Participation / Crewing


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Fish did i name you i can read so pull your head in.

 

I don't know see how making crew join a club is a barrier the club is still providing a service to your crew they want to go racing they want the bar after racing for a drink

Are you taking the piss, mate?

 

"Once again another lot of moaning people, Instead of moaning why not get out of your chair and join a yacht club"

 

I started this thread, so who else were you calling a moaner?

 

Once again another lot of moaning people.

 

Instead of moaning why not get out of your chair join a yacht club get involved and help grow the sport that you are complaining is declining.

 

Yacht clubs struggle for numbers and volunteers yet you won't join but want to rely on them running events for you but you don't want to support them.

 

For a crew to join a club is alot cheaper than been an owner paying to run, berth, entry fees.

 

 

If you can't see how adding additional entry requirements is a barrier to entry, I'm going to be wasting my time trying to explain it to you. What I can say is I'm a boat owner, who is interested in offshore racing, and I'm telling you this is an entry requirement that is not needed. It is counter-productive. It means in the long run, Royal Akarana is going to have smaller fleets, less participation and reduced revenue. I'm not the only one saying that.

Yes this clause killed our participation in all races that required it. Hard enough to get crew without this impost. So those regattas/ events  lost an entry fee plus all the add ons. Just another reason for the fall off in entry numbers. So for the "compulsion" brigade  I'll warrant that the fees they got from compulsory join up didn't come anywhere near the fees they lost. And it's cumulative like Fish says. The crew just do other things more important than joining a YC that they have no interest in joining.

 

And yes, I understand how club finances work. There aren't many that can afford to build new multi-million dollar facilities either.

 

In terms of participation, the costs associated with boat ownership infer substantial privileges for the owner skipper compared to some rail bait. Driving when you want, choosing what races to do, who to have on your boat etc, you can't compare the cost of crewing to the cost of boat ownership, its like owning the football team or being the goalie.

 

In terms of needing to join a club to crew,

You don't need to join an Alpine Club to go climb mountains,

You don't need to join a ski club to go skiing

You don't need to join an aquatic club to go scuba diving

You don't need to join a kite boarding club to go kite boarding

You don't need to join a club to go ocean swimming

You don't need to join a club to go para-gliding (although you do need a licence)

The list can go on and on. There are numerous outdoor, physically challenging, stimulating and exciting activities you can do in NZ without joining a club. Sailing, or crewing in a yacht race, is an activity that has similar attributes and I believe attracts people looking for similar experiences. Field based team sports are different in a number of respects. Comparing this to rugby, soccer etc is a waste of time.

 

But hay, I've made my point, if you don't get it, that's fine. If this is the way yachting wants to go, I might just take up free diving or some other sport with less bureaucracy  instead.

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Putting barriers in front of people by requesting that they pay a fair fee for the resources and facilities they off? To me I see that as a fair barrier, most clubs offer reduced crew/new member discounts and you can pay it off over time. Personally don’t see what the issue is.

 

If someone is going to commit to your boat as crew then should join a club

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In terms of needing to join a club to crew, You don't need to join an Alpine Club to go climb mountains,

You don't need to join a ski club to go skiing

You don't need to join an aquatic club to go scuba diving

You don't need to join a kite boarding club to go kite boarding

You don't need to join a club to go ocean swimming

You don't need to join a club to go para-gliding (although you do need a licence)

The list can go on and on. There are numerous outdoor, physically challenging, stimulating and exciting activities you can do in NZ without joining a club. Sailing, or crewing in a yacht race, is an activity that has similar attributes and I believe attracts people looking for similar experiences. Field based team sports are different in a number of respects. Comparing this to rugby, soccer etc is a waste of

You can go sailing for free as well, cruise the gulf to your hearts content. But join in an organised event, and then you should be a member of a club/pay a fee.

 

Go skiing- pay for lift passes etc

Go Kiteboard racing - Join the association/Pay a entry fee

Join in a ocean swim event- Join the association/ pay swim fee

 

One they are trailing over in Australia is a ‘Sail pass’ for non members up to 8 times sailing per year @ $10 a time, after that join a club and get the $80 as a credit!

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You can go sailing for free as well, cruise the gulf to your hearts content. But join in an organised event, and then you should be a member of a club/pay a fee.

 

Go skiing- pay for lift passes etc

Go Kiteboard racing - Join the association/Pay a entry fee

Join in a ocean swim event- Join the association/ pay swim fee

 

One they are trailing over in Australia is a ‘Sail pass’ for non members up to 8 times sailing per year @ $10 a time, after that join a club and get the $80 as a credit!

 

Exactly you want to participate support the clubs and organisations running these events. 

 

We had a casual racer fee of $10 at our club had people turn up not pay it and leave maybe come 4 times a year use the facilities race and nothing for the club so now if you want to race at our club you have to be a member its only fair on those that pay. 

 

the biggest barrier now a days for participation is time people are busier than they were 20yrs ago just in general. 

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I can see both sides of the argument, I think.

 

To get a taste of sailing and racing, join a family doing the Coastal, or jump on the odd Wed night, having to join a club and pay an annual fee for each crew member is a huge hurdle - it's a "yeah, nah". Few non-sailors have a spare 125 just lying around to spend on an annual fee for something they might do 2x a year on their mate's boat. 

 

If you jump on and become regular crew, then the skipper should encourage the crew who regulary sail, to join. Hell, I'd even go so far as to subsidize their membership if I felt they were keen enough. To get more people into sailing and reduce the public's "rich prick" perception should, I think, be an important goal for all of us. If you'd rather keep yachting only for the rich elite, then don't complain that there's no one to play with.

 

For longer races? Johnny T.* might only join me for one race, let's say the White Island race. And he steps in because he's got the weekend free - just this weekend, and he's got a pass out to have a boy's weekend.

 

Should he have to join a club and pay an annual fee? Yeah nah. He's going to turn up at the briefing before the race, eat one sausage drink two beers (which he pays for) and take a piss. He'll miss the prize giving because he has to be back to pick up Johnny T. Jnr. and cuddle with Mrs T.

 

Should he pay (or the skipper pay) a small listing fee to the club, such as Y88-5241 mentioned in Aussie? This sail pass thing? Seems like a good graduated approach. Could even work for things like the Wed. night series.

 

Let's kick it up a notch - Round NI two handed. This is a fairly large investment in time and effort for all involved. Belonging to a club might make sense here.

 

Yes it costs money to run these clubs and provide race control etc, but demanding that everyone involved is a memeber will further reduce participation and then membership. Yes clubs need members but remove the hurdles, show people the fun, and they will come. 

 

I got my first taste of racing on Pendaric. I had zero money, but I was fit and could winch and tail for hours. I'd never have gone even once if I had to become a memer of a club. I was hooked, and now membership makes sense for me. Back then in those first few weeks/ months? I'd have only gone tramping instead. 

 

Sure one can say, "hey the club can run an open day for those who want to try it out for free" But that really confines the potential pool to those who have time on that day or weekend. Far better to be more relaxed about it and allow a more natural development. 

 

 

* Not his real name.

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In Australia part of the club membership fee goes to the National Association, which also provides some sort of insurance I believe

InAustralia all members of affiliated clubs of Australian Sailing are covered by a National Personal Accident Insurance policy. Clubs are charged a set fee per year (differs club to club) not a per member fee to cover this

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As Armchair says, this is having a real impact on boats wanting to enter.

I predict there will be a reasonable fleet in the Akarana 350, but it will be either the premier offshore boats (such as Ran Tan and the likes) or guys qualifying for the RNI. There will be very few, if any, 'normal' boats that just want to try it out, boats that have done plenty of Gulf racing and several Coastals, and want to try something a bit more challenging. Kind of what I'd call the grass roots boats, fairly modest, a bit older, with owners keen for new challenges (but don't want to do the RNI 2 up)

 

Is it really having a 'real impact on boats wanting to enter'.   Or is it just your boat? 

 

At the risk of going around in circles, for $65 your crew could join the NZMYC of SSANZ and be legit for any race for next 12 months,  And again, if its the only race they do all year, it still seems cheap compared to the owners bill for even just the 1 race. Or the food and beverages bill if they share it around.

 

Boats that have done 'plenty of gulf racing and several coastal' more than likely have crew that are regular enough that they should join a club,  

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Interesting thread.

 

Having spent time on yacht club committees where declining membership was a concern, there were two arguments.

 

1. You can drive membership up by offering cheaper "crew" memberships and then forcing crew to join if they want to sail.

2. Forcing crew to join just causes them not to turn up at all.

 

My personal view is that for a Wednesday night type race where people head to the bar afterwards and the club probably does pretty well out of the bar, it's better to allow anyone to crew. This allows people to come along for a go and see if they want to get into it.

 

For a race like the akarana 350, it's pretty unlikely boats are going to attract or want to take crew with zero experience and no idea. It's also a lot of work to organise, and unlikely to make the club much back over the bar due to diverging finishing times etc. Same with the ssanz races where the club doesn't have a clubhouse and get everyone back spending over the bar after races. This makes it seem pretty fair to expect the crew to be members somewhere.

 

Also, for a race like the a350, as a skipper if you really want to bring a couple of extras who happen to not already be members somewhere, and they're young and broke, the cost of the couple of days off work to do it makes a couple of $65 dollar ssanz memberships pale into insignificance so you could always just pay for them.

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On our club in the Sweetwater Seas, we let non-members crew for Wed beer (rum?) can races. 

 

But we encourage them to join as crew members and many do -  for $ 80 USD per year. 

 

I don't think it would work to make them join before their first race. 

 

Interesting to note (from the above) that my US membership would be accepted in NZ. 

 

Keep it up Kiwis - you have a great thing going. 

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I'm with you raz88. For just around the cans the club does alright out of the bar. I know the club did well out of non member crews at the PYBC Thursday night races when I was a member there. Suppose it is the same now.

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Lets look at how to progress in racing, both as an owner / skipper, as a boat, and as a crew. By progression of racing, how do you progress from casual club racing, Wednesday night series, to the Coastal, to things like the White Island / Akarana 350, and then maybe to bigger things, RNI Fiji Noumea etc.

 

I am genuinely interested in how you guys advanced from being a pimply aresed rail bait to someone capable of racing in or skippering a substantial event, and also the follow on into contributing to your club, club officer / race officer stuff. Have a look at how you progressed, and is that same pathway available today in NZ? I'm not talking theoretical BS here, but how did you do it? Gappy, Native, Clipper? If that pathway is still available today, great, no problem. I learnt my racing in the UK, and I don't believe I'd be able to progress in NZ now the way I did then.

 

Now, How many times have you done the Coastal, absolutely loved it, been completely fizzing for a week afterwards and then been a little disappointed you have to wait a year to do it again. What if there was a race equivalent to the Coastal maybe 6 or 8 weeks after the Coastal? Wouldn't it be great to have another crack at a fun but challenging passage race that involves sailing through the night, with varied conditions and changing weather?

 

Look at the number of entries in the Coastal, about 160? mostly all fully crewed. What would the average number of crew be? 6 or 8? You've got near 1,000 people out having a go at passage / overnight racing. How many of those are hardened sailors, and how many are friends, family, workmates doing a one off or occasional race. How many of those are doing their first passage race?

 

If you could go and do a race equivalent to the Coastal 6 or so weeks later, how many of those friends, family, workmates et al would be keen, get into the sport seriously, see its something they really enjoy, and then invest the time and money into safety courses and club memberships? The White Island / Akarana 350 falls a few weeks after the Coastal...

 

Now, look at the entry requirements for the Coastal. Yes its CAT 3, now imagine you are a boat owner / skipper doing your first Coastal. The NZMYC make it as easy as possible, seminars on everything, CAT 3 inspections sessions, and a minimum of entry requirements. It is an achievable goal for a new skipper / boat owner to do the Coastal. If they find they really love passage racing, but find round the cans racing tedious, what can they do next?

 

In the UK, there is a natural progression for passage racing, building up over the season. Generally the goal is to qualify for the Fastnet, which is always heavily over-subscribed. To do the Fastnet yes you need advanced sea survival and a bunch of other stuff. But every couple of weeks or month or so there is a good passage race / over nighter / cross channel race. You can jump on a boat and try it out, if you want to progress you settle into a crew, once you are into it you can commit to doing the various courses and tickets. It is a natural progression. But the key is to make it easy to get started, get people onboard, and then progress the through the club membership and other requirements. These races have big fleets, including down in the lower divisions of modest boats and friends and family type stuff, i.e. grass roots boats and sailors.

 

So there is a consensus that short handed racing, both crew should be members. You guys are putting that you agree with all crew being members for the Akarana 350.

So why not make all crew for the Coastal need to be members? That would give substantial additional revenue to yacht clubs.

What would happen to participant numbers, would you still get near 1,000 participants?

What would happen to entry numbers?

What would happen to the flow on of friends / family / workmates getting into sailing?

 

Now go back and look at how you progressed through racing, would having to be a financial member of a yacht club at that time been a barrier to you getting to where you are today?

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Lets look at how to progress in racing, both as an owner / skipper, as a boat, and as a crew. By progression of racing, how do you progress from casual club racing, Wednesday night series, to the Coastal, to things like the White Island / Akarana 350, and then maybe to bigger things, RNI Fiji Noumea etc.

 

I am genuinely interested in how you guys advanced from being a pimply aresed rail bait to someone capable of racing in or skippering a substantial event, and also the follow on into contributing to your club, club officer / race officer stuff. Have a look at how you progressed, and is that same pathway available today in NZ? I'm not talking theoretical BS here, but how did you do it? Gappy, Native, Clipper? If that pathway is still available today, great, no problem. I learnt my racing in the UK, and I don't believe I'd be able to progress in NZ now the way I did then.

 

Now, How many times have you done the Coastal, absolutely loved it, been completely fizzing for a week afterwards and then been a little disappointed you have to wait a year to do it again. What if there was a race equivalent to the Coastal maybe 6 or 8 weeks after the Coastal? Wouldn't it be great to have another crack at a fun but challenging passage race that involves sailing through the night, with varied conditions and changing weather?

 

Look at the number of entries in the Coastal, about 160? mostly all fully crewed. What would the average number of crew be? 6 or 8? You've got near 1,000 people out having a go at passage / overnight racing. How many of those are hardened sailors, and how many are friends, family, workmates doing a one off or occasional race. How many of those are doing their first passage race?

 

If you could go and do a race equivalent to the Coastal 6 or so weeks later, how many of those friends, family, workmates et al would be keen, get into the sport seriously, see its something they really enjoy, and then invest the time and money into safety courses and club memberships? The White Island / Akarana 350 falls a few weeks after the Coastal...

 

Now, look at the entry requirements for the Coastal. Yes its CAT 3, now imagine you are a boat owner / skipper doing your first Coastal. The NZMYC make it as easy as possible, seminars on everything, CAT 3 inspections sessions, and a minimum of entry requirements. It is an achievable goal for a new skipper / boat owner to do the Coastal. If they find they really love passage racing, but find round the cans racing tedious, what can they do next?

 

In the UK, there is a natural progression for passage racing, building up over the season. Generally the goal is to qualify for the Fastnet, which is always heavily over-subscribed. To do the Fastnet yes you need advanced sea survival and a bunch of other stuff. But every couple of weeks or month or so there is a good passage race / over nighter / cross channel race. You can jump on a boat and try it out, if you want to progress you settle into a crew, once you are into it you can commit to doing the various courses and tickets. It is a natural progression. But the key is to make it easy to get started, get people onboard, and then progress the through the club membership and other requirements. These races have big fleets, including down in the lower divisions of modest boats and friends and family type stuff, i.e. grass roots boats and sailors.

 

So there is a consensus that short handed racing, both crew should be members. You guys are putting that you agree with all crew being members for the Akarana 350.

So why not make all crew for the Coastal need to be members? That would give substantial additional revenue to yacht clubs.

What would happen to participant numbers, would you still get near 1,000 participants?

What would happen to entry numbers?

What would happen to the flow on of friends / family / workmates getting into sailing?

 

Now go back and look at how you progressed through racing, would having to be a financial member of a yacht club at that time been a barrier to you getting to where you are today?

I have been a member of at least one yacht club since I was 8, and don’t see why I wouldn’t want to be a member of a club to do a sport I’m participating in. Agree Wednesday night/ beer can races invite guests along, any other racing all crew should be members.

 

I’m sure you don’t stick to the clubs rules by signing all your non-member crew in before they go to the bar? Potentially breaching their liquor licence etc. Join a club, it’s not hard and hardly expensive. Probably costs more for a tank of fuel to drive to sailing these days

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I have been a member of at least one yacht club since I was 8, and don’t see why I wouldn’t want to be a member of a club to do a sport I’m participating in. Agree Wednesday night/ beer can races invite guests along, any other racing all crew should be members.

 

I’m sure you don’t stick to the clubs rules by signing all your non-member crew in before they go to the bar? Potentially breaching their liquor licence etc. Join a club, it’s not hard and hardly expensive. Probably costs more for a tank of fuel to drive to sailing these days

Yes, but you are a boat owner right? Did you ever try or get into any other sports, and have you ever taken non-boat owners or even non-sailors out on your boat?

 

And where do you draw the line for requiring membership? The Coastal is CAT 3 same as the Akarana 350, why not make it mandatory for the Coastal?

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After racing dinghies (was a yc member) I got into keelboat racing when I moved to Auckland as a student. I had little to no spare cash. I wasnt a yacht club member. I raced half ton, one ton, white island,noumea,fiji. All while a student. No money, no club.

Went to Sydney. Raced syd-hobart and some other coastal stuff. Then syd-noumea. Then went cruising. Did some races in Canada and US. Came back to NZ.Finally joined a club again about 10 years ago.

 

Clubs are allowed to apply whatever rules they like, but with declining numbers it seems to me more sensible to make participation easier not harder.

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Bit illogical there Fish, youre advocating a slippery slope argument that because the RAYC requires X then all yacht clubs are doomed. 

Nah Native, I didn't say that.

I asked the question, what is the progression pathway to advance through bigger races.

And I actually think NZ is as nanny state or more than the UK. There were substantially less rules and encumbrances to just going racing.

 

So I can accept your position that this is a hard offshore event and membership shouldn't be a big deal. Its a CAT 3 passage event, same as the Coastal.

 

Do you think membership should be compulsory for the Coastal?

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I’m not in favor of compulsory anything, but if the club decided that was the condition then so be it.

 

I think it’s a bit more serious than the coastal, 350 miles of racing off the New Zealand coast line can bring some pretty ugly weather.

You are starting to sound a bit like a politician.

 

So you don't think membership for the Coastal should be compulsory, but it should be for the Akarana 350, even though they are both Cat 3 passage races? Where do you draw the line? Sounds a bit inconsistent.

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