Barriers to Participation / Crewing

[Y88 5241 25]

Yes, but you are a boat owner right? Did you ever try or get into any other sports, and have you ever taken non-boat owners or even non-sailors out on your boat?

 

And where do you draw the line for requiring membership? The Coastal is CAT 3 same as the Akarana 350, why not make it mandatory for the Coastal?

Boat owner as of this year yes, until now always been a crew on other boats. I tried hockey for a few weeks, wasn’t allowed to play without paying a fee! And all crew on my boat for races more than a Wednesday night/rum race are members of a club! By that stage chances are they have spent more on wet weather gear than what a membership would cost!

 

I don’t have a issue with all sailors in the coastal classic being a member of a club if that’s what the race committee requests. How is the sport going to progress if only the owners are members of a club? A lot of time and resource goes into organising racing, compliance with council/government etc. don’t see anything wrong with having to pay a reasonable fee.

 

Play hockey $440 just for membership, their sport seems to be going ok for participation numbers, but a boat owner has a problem with crew paying $30-150 for a year to join a sailing club.

[Fish 0]

You are sounding very confused so I will spell it out. I did not say that membership should or shouldn't be anything- you did and are.

I'm asking you what you think native. What is your opinion?

Your initial posts were stating strong support for compulsory membership.

Do you think the Coastal should have compulsory membership?

 

PS, don't forget to breath, this is just an interweb debate 

[Fish 0]

Play hockey $440 just for membership, their sport seems to be going ok for participation numbers, but a boat owner has a problem with crew paying $30-150 for a year to join a sailing club.

Fair enough on your view of compulsory membership.

 

For the hockey fees, how much does it cost to lay one of those artificial hockey turf's, and does the hockey club or council pay for that outlay?

I'd expect hockey fees need to cover the cost of some not insignificant real estate.

[Freedom GBE 27]

NZMHYC $65

[Fish 0]

The progressive pathway Is called shut the f-up and grind that winch fill some forms out, find a nominator and seconder, pay some cash, sit through some theoretical training and obtain some tickets. Then when you have proved yourself you get invited onto a boat by your reputation compliance with regulations and the number of theoretical courses you have sat.

Fixed it for you 

[Y88 5241 25]

Fair enough on your view of compulsory membership.

 

For the hockey fees, how much does it cost to lay one of those artificial hockey turf's, and does the hockey club or council pay for that outlay?

I'd expect hockey fees need to cover the cost of some not insignificant real estate.

I guess sailing clubs don’t have costs to run racing either, start boats, buoys, flags, insurance for volunteers, training of volunteers, admin of entries etc

 

At least hockey fields are council owned shared assets

[harrytom 642]

I'm with you raz88. For just around the cans the club does alright out of the bar. I know the club did well out of non member crews at the PYBC Thursday night races when I was a member there. Suppose it is the same now.

from fleets 12/15 down to 4 on a good night,time?drink driving??

[DrWatson 374]

Yeah I think there's boats 'n crews, and there's boats 'n crews.

 

If you're lucky and the group of friends you have all have similar time availabilities, maybe you're all at the same stage in life etc., and you can all regularly crew on the one boat, then a club membership is likely fine and fair. If you're doing all the races etc. as one crew.

 

And I don't think anyone is arguing that point.

 

But how many boats actually have a regular crew? Look at how many boats are sitting in the marinas or on the moorings. All (most) potential competitors - no chance they will all have regular crew.

I'd wager that there are equally as many boats, possibly more than the number with regular crews, who because of the way their lives are the people who can crew for example for the Coastal are not going to be the ones who can crew for the White Island and again a different crew for the AKL-TGA race. The boat and skipper may do 6 passage races in the season, but takes 6 new and different crew members each time. The boat may not perform at the top of her class, and may not be sailed to her polars, but that's not the point.

 

Mandating for those three races I mentioned above, that all 18 one time crew members must be members of a yacht club is, in my opinion, the surest way to make sure the fleets only ever contain the boats that have a regular crew. And that's fine if you want an event with only good crews, or only the best boats. In NZ that'll be a small fleet. But it just doesn't fit with the modern family lifestyle. If all your mates/crew can regularly give up 6 long weekends a year to crew then you're a luck SOB.

 

So it's not just "65 bucks is very little to pay for a years racing" because that's true if you're a regular crew member. And it's also cheaper than the amount of money the owner spends maintaining the boat and entering the races. That's a given.

 

But it's more than just $65 for those boats without a regular crew. It's 18 x $65, for those three races. A person who sails one race in the year on my boat is not going to get the value from that membership. I'm happy to sponsor my regular crew memberships to the cheapest club. But I'm not going to sponsor 18 memberships, or 6 new memberships every time I want to do a passage race. Should I then expect each of my crew to fork out the $65 bucks each to come for a ride and help stand watch overnight on the way to TGA? Yeah nah. (And remember we're looking at the cheapest option there).

 

So, it's Tuesday the 20th Nov. Two nights before the A350, and 1 of your crew call you and tell you they got the flu, and then bloody Dave calls you on Wed morning to tell you his kid just broke her arm so he'll have to bail. You really need those two hands. Do you:

1. Pull the pin on the race and disappoint the 2 remaining crew, forfeit your entry fee, and decrease the number of boats crossing the start line.
2. Ask Pete from work who sold his boat 5 years ago, is at a loose end and offers to step in, and get your father-in-law along as well.

Now I'm not completely sure about how RAYC view changing out crew only 2 days before the event, but so long as their names are on/added to the submitted crew list. Should it really matter? Same scenario can be envisaged for the TGA race, or the White island race, etc.

 

It really is a horses for courses thing. And each of us has a different situation with respect to how we can crew our boats. 

If the Akarana are pushing the A350 as a premier race with top boats and hot crews etc. then OK, but this really limits the number of boats. 

At the end of the day, I fear that clauses like this do depress the number of eligible boats and therefore the number of boats that actually sign up for each passage race. 

Many skippers will just say, screw you guys I'm staying home. Or go cruising (which is also nice).  

 

Or the other option:

[DrWatson 374]

So how do we change it? Assuming we want to.

[Black Panther 1,581]

I also think we should look at the lost kids leaving the dinghy classes. We are losing them. When I went to uni and had zero money for sailing I jumped on a keelboat as crew.

Maybe if dinghy racing wasn't quite so focused on Olympic medals.? And maybe if the keelboat racers thought a out changing the culture around that as well?

[chariot 242]

How many owners of boats in Auckland marinas belong to a club? Pine Harbour would be lucky if it is 30%. Maybe if clubs had a few more destination races so the crews can have a night socializing without worrying about driving. Not everyone wants just to race around the cans every weekend.

[Y88 5241 25]

How many owners of boats in Auckland marinas belong to a club? Pine Harbour would be lucky if it is 30%. Maybe if clubs had a few more destination races so the crews can have a night socializing without worrying about driving. Not everyone wants just to race around the cans every weekend.

Quick search, quite a few clubs already running cruising/destination events including:

MYCNZ, RNZYS, RYC, HYC, CCYC, BBYC just as a quick search

[harrytom 642]

How many owners of boats in Auckland marinas belong to a club? Pine Harbour would be lucky if it is 30%. Maybe if clubs had a few more destination races so the crews can have a night socializing without worrying about driving. Not everyone wants just to race around the cans every weekend.

pybc 380 members mixed launch/yacht  maybe 200 vessels which strugle to get 4 entries thursday night winter sunday series maybe 6 away/cruising might get 4.  Afraid sign of the times work cost etc

[B00B00 310]

So for the A350, 350nm at this time of the year. Not really a race for beginners. Sure you have to start somewhere but this race is most likely not going to be your first taste of sailing....

Anyone contemplating crewing in the race has already invested hundreds or more likely thousands on wet weather gear, life jacket/harness, sea boots ect. If its a boat that takes a complete beginner on a race like this then its very likely that the race/food costs are going to be split so there is more money. Then there is (at least) a day off work and the whole weekend for the race, plus a few evenings or weekends before hand helping with boat prep- Its a big commitment, not just turn up and go sailing.

I just dont see $65 for joining a club being a big issue for a major race.

[chariot 242]

pybc 380 members mixed launch/yacht  maybe 200 vessels which strugle to get 4 entries thursday night winter sunday series maybe 6 away/cruising might get 4.  Afraid sign of the times work cost etc

That's a shame. We used to get 30 to 35 entries for the 2 handed 3 legged weekend but I understand the numbers are well down on that these days. 

[Y88 5241 25]

So for the A350, 350nm at this time of the year. Not really a race for beginners. Sure you have to start somewhere but this race is most likely not going to be your first taste of sailing....

Anyone contemplating crewing in the race has already invested hundreds or more likely thousands on wet weather gear, life jacket/harness, sea boots ect. If its a boat that takes a complete beginner on a race like this then its very likely that the race/food costs are going to be split so there is more money. Then there is (at least) a day off work and the whole weekend for the race, plus a few evenings or weekends before hand helping with boat prep- Its a big commitment, not just turn up and go sailing.

I just dont see $65 for joining a club being a big issue for a major race.

Exactly, and as a boat owner, if your crew won't pay $65 to join a club considering the expense gone into getting a boat ready etc doesn't seem fair!

[Fish 0]

I just dont see $65 for joining a club being a big issue for a major race.

And for the Coastal?

 

Compulsory crew membership is a standard clause of YNZ / World Sailing's standard sailing instructions.

[harrytom 642]

Been thinking about this requirement. If there was  100 entries and say average crew of 5 thats 500 personal, what a time consuming job checking each crew member with the club they have put down to see if they are legit or not,what a waste of rayc resources.

If this was to apply every race and every club in future you can kiss yacht race good bye.

This is a start of a slippery slope and promotes Elite yachts/crews only, imo theres goes the coastal and any special event racing.

That means even though I am confident of sailing a yacht around 350 mile course I wouldnt be eligible under the experience ruling?

 

Theres plenty of good crews/skippers currently making coastal passages without belong to a club doing it safely

 

Does belonging to club make me better than a non member?NO

[Ex Machina 365]

But it's a good earner for YNZ

[Y88 5241 25]

Been thinking about this requirement. If there was 100 entries and say average crew of 5 thats 500 personal, what a time consuming job checking each crew member with the club they have put down to see if they are legit or not,what a waste of rayc resources.

If this was to apply every race and every club in future you can kiss yacht race good bye.

This is a start of a slippery slope and promotes Elite yachts/crews only, imo theres goes the coastal and any special event racing.

That means even though I am confident of sailing a yacht around 350 mile course I wouldnt be eligible under the experience ruling?

 

Theres plenty of good crews/skippers currently making coastal passages without belong to a club doing it safely

 

Does belonging to club make me better than a non member?NO

So being a member of a yacht club makes you and elite sailor?

 

If a crew member won’t pay $65 a year for a club membership find another sport! Not a big expense in the grand scheme of thing. I don’t see why people find it such a issue