Smaller foresail - depowering my rig

[Guest]

I had an interesting conversation the other day with someone who is supposed to know about these things. My Nova 28 is way overpowered in anything over 15 knots with her current foresail - an overlapping number 1. She's a masthead rig so this is a big sail. If I roll up the furler a bit the sail is totally out of shape and useless for going to windward.

 

He suggests I need a smaller higher and flatter cut foresail. He said yachts like mine are pretty square sided and don't go well when overly heeled. I don't carry a heavy crew to put on the windward rail. He reckons I will find myself going much faster with a smaller sail in anything but the lightest conditions.

 

So I thought I'd jump on here and get a second opinion.

 

I also thought I'd ask for suggestions of where I might pick up such a sail - whether a recut second hand racing sail would be appropriate for the (what I like to think of as performance) cruising that I do.

[shanson 0]

I would have thought a proper furling sail that doesn't lose shape when furled would be better?

 

Mine seems to hold it's shape really well when furled.

 

SHANE

[Guest]

I would have thought a proper furling sail that doesn't lose shape when furled would be better?

 

Mine seems to hold it's shape really well when furled.

 

SHANE

 

I had thought about that. But how far can you furl it before you lose shape? 1/4? 1/2?

 

Also, in 5-10 knots, how much is a 140% overlap going to give me in extra speed as opposed to no or very little overlap? I have read that in very light winds a smaller headsail is better anyway - keeps it's shape better.

[Guest]

I had an interesting conversation the other day with someone who is supposed to know about these things. My Nova 28 is way overpowered in anything over 15 knots with her current foresail - an overlapping number 1. She's a masthead rig so this is a big sail. If I roll up the furler a bit the sail is totally out of shape and useless for going to windward.

 

He suggests I need a smaller higher and flatter cut foresail. He said yachts like mine are pretty square sided and don't go well when overly heeled. I don't carry a heavy crew to put on the windward rail. He reckons I will find myself going much faster with a smaller sail in anything but the lightest conditions.

 

So I thought I'd jump on here and get a second opinion.

 

I'll second the 'someone who should know'.

 

Furlers need to be tweaked to roll up and knot go bad shape wise. It wasn't that long ago that many weren't so it could be a case of your No. 1 wasn't made that way on purpose or is of a vintage where that wasn't the norm. It maybe possible to retro fit, speak to a sail chopper would be the best bet there.

 

If you lean over too much you do slow down, ask most Ross boat sailors, those boats come with that feature well built in At 18kts odd I'm faster with a smaller flatter headsail than I am with the No 1. as I just don't lean or stagger along as much. I sit more upright which makes me faster.

 

So I fully agree with 'someone who should know'.

[shanson 0]

I've got no idea who this mysterious "someone who should know" is and I'm a cruiser not a racer so will not be as fussy, however....

 

There is a pocket in the leech which is filled with some foam that is thicker in the body than towards the head or foot. This means that the body of the sail gets furled more than the rest so it tends to keep it's shape pretty well.

 

I've done some basic testing and we can still point pretty great when well furled.

 

also the sail is a 90% so its only slightly overlapping.

 

SHANE

[Guest]

I've got no idea who this mysterious "someone who should know" is and I'm a cruiser not a racer so will not be as fussy, however....

 

There is a pocket in the leech which is filled with some foam that is thicker in the body than towards the head or foot. This means that the body of the sail gets furled more than the rest so it tends to keep it's shape pretty well.

 

I've done some basic testing and we can still point pretty great when well furled.

 

also the sail is a 90% so its only slightly overlapping.

 

SHANE

 

Sorry, this "someone who know" is a professional in the industry but I won't name him here as I haven't asked him if I can. Shouldn't really go naming people without asking them should I?

 

Sounds like your sail is smaller than mine - it could be that I need something like that.

[shanson 0]

I understand, I didn't want to contradict "Someone who should know" that I know!

 

I've also got a 110% but it's not furling and doesn;t add much unless it;s pretty light!

 

SHANE

(someone who doesn't know!)

[Bogan 8]

Sailing a 1020 - in most conditions we see the no2 non-overlapping genoais fast or faster than the no1 overlapper upwind unless you've got big crew on the rail. Also much easier through tacks and manouvering for start. Also sets more easily in very light air unless the No1 is very light weight.

 

It loses out off the wind without the kite - where the boat pushes past its natural hull speed, and when you've got some moving ballast and extra hands upwind.

 

I don't even carry a no1 on board when cruising. Just leave the No2 hanked on the whole time. (Except coming back from Mahurangi on Anniversary day - broke out the No3 for the first time for that one).

[Grinna 2]

Yeah, had 3 reefs in the main and the staysail up for the trip back from Mahurangi on the Anniversary Monday.

 

Short and steep waves between Mahurangi and Tiri Passage.

[Fogg 427]

Yeah that can be a suprisingly nasty little piece of water, never really worked it out, nothing remarkable about the seabed e.g. sudden shallowing. Maybe water getting trapped between the peninsula to the south and Orewa beach to the west. But can be much worse than it's counterpart S of the peninsula.

[wheels 544]

I find two issues withe Furlers when you start furling the sail in. If the sail has not been "tweaked" properly, you will get wrinkles at the top and the bottom of the sail and the sail losses it's correct shape. That can be solved by getting the sail maker to come down to the boat and see what is required for the tweaks. I believe it is the foam piece that allows the sail to roll correctly to maintain the tension over the fabric.

The other issue is the position of the Clew needs to come more Inboard as you furl in, so the sheeting point is often not possible using the same sheet track/car as you would for the bigger sail. Forgive me as I am not "clewed" up enough to know the corect terms and equipment of what you need here. I am sure someone will help with that part.

[Fogg 427]

My previous headsails included a too-big #1 and a too-small #2 and lots of sagging and poor performance in a freesh breeze and when half furled.

 

SO for my new headsail I went for half between in terms of area and with a reasonably high-cut foot, going towards a yankee, but not quite. Benefits of this (for cruising) are higher foot = better visibility under sail. But more importantly it's a better reaching sail (leech less likely to curl in and stall) and also when I start to furl it the higher sheet angle gives me more tolerance as I start to move the cars forward i.e. I can furl it further before I run out of car travel and the sheeting angle becomes inefficient.

 

I've also got the padding you talk about in the luff which takes up more sail in the middle of the forestay than at the ends to improve shape when furled. But North's don't use foam because they said it gets wet and gradually gets crushed and loses it's shape. SO they use xtra layers of bolt rope with only one at the extreme ends and 3-4 through the middle of the luff, I think.

 

Booboo would answer all olf this better than me though!

[Murky 0]

The only point I would add, as someone who looks enviously at furlers on other boats when cruising, is that if you can get the furling option working to its potential, you will spend a lot less time folding sails. Sure, it's not onerous work but I think you would find you are more likely to put up a sail, especially on short hops, if you aren't looking ahead to the prospect of putting it back in the bag again in an hour.

[Guest]

Try cruising with a fully battened mainsail that has bolt rope rather than slides so has to come completely off and be rolled up, now that is a total arse. We swap mains for longer cruising.

[Murky 0]

Hearing you bro. Someone needs to develop storage units within marina complexes, also a cruising vs racing anchor rental service. I would not want to add it up but total loading/unloading time must get quite close to actual time spent cruising.

[Guest]

Takes me about 20min to swap from race to Cruise mode. All sails swapped out (all 3 ), fridge on, the rest of the fishing gear on, hooker gear on and off we go. We keep pots, pans, coffee making goodies (the real stuff) and a reasonable supply of food aboard all the time. Ya just never know when it may take 2 or 3 days to get home from a race We can hop on our boat at any time and be sweet for 3-4 days before having to look at topping up food or liquids. Knot really the best for racing but it is a old family cruiser after all

[Murky 0]

Yeah yeah, I know, the breadmaker, the dishwasher, the jacuzzi, the grand piano...

Amazing that she sails at all. Rest of us should all be ashamed. Blah blah blah.

[Guest]

dishwasher and breadmaker is a Yes. She's good like that

[John B 109]

... the kayak on the foredeck that looks like a pulmonary embolism , the anchor buddy, the bimini , stern anchor, 15 hp on the pushpit....

 

 

I'd say you've had some good advice meself, Capt. About 110% still tacks easily and has a wider range of use before furling.( as the others have said)

A lot of furlers seem to just have a single fat rope in a pocket about 2/3 the length of the luff these days instead of a foam luff. I have one of those and it seems to work ok.

[Guest]

Thanks for the advice folks, much appreciated.

 

Anyone know a good place for second hand sails? Or maybe I should get my current sail recut - I just had a new UV strip put on last year at great expense and don't want to waste it.