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So one of these almost hit me yesterday out in the Waitemata....


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Are these things hard to change course or something? (see pic below post)

 

 

Multis are easyer to change course down than Monos. Monos lean a lot and the rudder is on the edge. We have two rudders one is usually in the water.

 

We never cleat the traveler and ours is 4m wide, it never runs out of track due to apperent breeze, it needs to be freed instantly in case of a gust and change in wind direction.

 

Dipping a boat does make you go a lot faster, but you can see where you are going.

 

Going above another boat is not an option, we cant see the lower hull and pinching kills VMG.

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Yep multihulls are pretty maneuverable and misunderstood.

We will generally always prefer to dip a keelboat. rather than make one tack, because then the keel boat just goes high and pinches us out after the tack. 

I can't see the problem here, the kids on the weta were eyeballing the skipper of the keel boat and possibly ducked him closer than he was comfortable. At the end of the day if they'd hit they would have come off MUCH worse and probably broken their prod.

 

Relax,

as long as the skippers are eye-balling each other then you should be able avoid contact.

 

The keel boat on starboard simply needs to maintain course.

 

Now as for huge stink pots digging holes in water and feeling the need to do 25 knots while they roar past 10 metres away, that's a different matter ! 

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Well very generous of you Philstar to suspend the Collision Regs for  anyone that can't be stuffed following them, however they do actually serve a purpose.

 

If the snot nose brats in the dinghy had blown past even a few metres away, probably no one would give a sh*t, but showing off at less than a metre away some people rightfully get irritated. 

So I guess the said brats are on a path to learning when you can be a dick & when it sometimes pays to use a bit of discretion.

I think for me it took about 40 years, they might be more mature & come right faster?

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Spent quite a few afternoons sailing round Bream Bay while the F50 SailGP cats were being trialed. Waste of time trying to get close to them, just have to hang around and hope they will swing by.

Got buzzed a few times, wish they came closer too, was some of the most thrilling stuff I've seen on the water, when one of them is coming straight at you at 40+knots its pretty awesome. By the time they got to Team USA and AUS they had them pretty dialed in and were happy to come closer, the early teams looked a bit out of control and kept their distance. Each to their own I guess, I love sailing.

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Well very generous of you Philstar to suspend the Collision Regs for  anyone that can't be stuffed following them, however they do actually serve a purpose.

 

If the snot nose brats in the dinghy had blown past even a few metres away, probably no one would give a sh*t, but showing off at less than a metre away some people rightfully get irritated. 

So I guess the said brats are on a path to learning when you can be a dick & when it sometimes pays to use a bit of discretion.

I think for me it took about 40 years, they might be more mature & come right faster?

First of all, obviously the the ColRegs help to avoid damage to property and persons.  That was not at risk here when Zozza was freaked out by a couple of kids having a great time whizzing by a "seawall" at speed.  No-one was injured or even at risk.

 

Secondly, to call them "snot nosed brats" is a bit rich, unless you know them.  I see myself about 40 years ago, having a great time.  I certainly wasn't a "snot nosed brat", just a kid being in control of a speed machine and having the time of my life.

 

Possibly the best defence you could have if this is a serious threat would be to have multiple copies of the ColRegs and literally "throw the book at them".

 

FFS, you want kids to have fun and join the sport, but actually don't want them to have fun?

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You know what...I'd rather not test who would come off the worst in a direct hit.

I really don't fancy having to haul my boat and get damage fixed, while comforting myself that "the other lot came off worse".   There is some good debate in this thread, but this line of talk is pure BS.

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The indignance of age eh?

 

If I have to dip to a racer on port, I don't give them a hellava lot of room if I'm keen to

keep my vmg. Its not going to be 50m as they are the encumbered.

Unless of course, if its blowing like hell and I have to dump a bit.

If it smells of damage, I'm well away.

But then, I'm new at this.

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Agreed Zozza. To say there is no risk is just wrong. What happened is both contrary to the colregs, and carries heightened risk. By that I mean that being close at speed requires both good judgement and no unexpected issues to occur. A simple issue can cause a collision - sheet that doesn't run, gear failure at the wrong moment etc. When we race, we accept these possibilities, and enter events under the RRS. That was not the case here, and its simply wrong.

We are not the "fun police", there are plenty of opportunities for the kids to sail fast and close. This is not one of them.

Here is a comparison - you are driving through an intersection, another car approaching from your left, coming sideways!flicks the other way drifts past you, behind, missing you by a meter with his bonnet. The rule is give way to the right, so technically he did - he missed. That shows skill and control, same as this sailing event, but I bet you wouldn't be happy!

Both events have no place except in competition. IMO. And the Laws.

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Can't completely agree Island Time, I was out Saturday, know the conditions   and fairly sure I have the cruiser in question figured.

There was 8-10kts breeze with very slow oscilations between about 80 and 105, for a Weta (think I saw it was a Weta somewhere), bearing away without easing would have been easy.  Risks were pretty much limited to plain bad helming on the part of the dipping boat and a rudder/tiller breakage at a very wrong moment.  Agree still a bit closer than is really necessary (I'm not at all sure the multi was even racing) but, well if you're into close dips, Saturday was about perfect conditions to try them.  Speed, Wetas are really not that fast upwind, not sure their VMG would have been a whole lot more than the cruiser.

Collregs and speed is a side issue, technical yes it breaks the law but in the real world, well, if the cruiser is the one I think it is and wants to complain about that, they were breaking the same rules with respect to us and about 40 other boats as they were over five knots themselves and within 50m of other vessels and for good chunks of the time also within 200m of shore or structures.  Don't think even a H28 could sail down Auckland harbour in technical collregs compliance and avoid other boats and shore without either going to motor (slowly) or deep reefing.

Very different story in 18+ knots but issue I'm seeing is more an item of courtesy rather than danger.  One metre and presumably late bearing down, yes all a bit unnecessary, expectations though of bearing away from 100m and missing by tens of metres, not reasonable in my view.

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Regs are regs and if you aren't following them when you have an accident then good luck with your insurance claim

I'd challenge anyone to fully comply with the ColRegs 100% of the time on a busy Saturday while transiting from Westhaven to North Head, esp while one of those darn yacht clubs are holding a darn race and there is 100's of boats zig zagging across the ditch / channel what ever you call that narrow piece of water now.

 

While you are all completely correct that regs are regs, there are orders of magnitude of importance and compliance. Not hitting anyone is clearly up at the top, and transiting that area on a busy Saturday race day, not hitting anyone can be a reasonable achievement.

Next of importance is not having any near misses. 

Then, ensuring your intentions are clear and well communicated to boats around you.

Keeping a good look out and actually being aware of all of the boats and their intentions, in the area of water around you.

Maneuvering without f**king anyone else up - for want of a better word, being able to tack or change course without causing issues for others, and with enough room to do it in a seamanlike manner etc.

And down near the bottom of the list, remaining below 5 knots within 50 meters of all the other vessels, etc

 

I don't see doing 7 knts within 50 m while passing astern as a major crime instead of 5 knts, if all other things are equal (intentions are clear, no near misses, etc)

 

I can sympathize with the OP that another boat got in his personal space, and made him feel uncomfortable. That is a given.

But in the order of magnitudes, this was not a safety issue, being a risk of personal injury or death. I don't consider it an issue of property damage, in the context of serious damage or sinking (in the context of Gypsy). It did pose a risk of property damage being cosmetic damage, either paint scratches, or (and most likely) loosing a fishing lure if one was being towed (which I wouldn't do between Westhaven and North Head anyway, due to the congestion in that area as mentioned above).

 

It was certainly discourteous, and it certainly made the OP uncomfortable, and irritated enough to start this thread about it.

 

But in the context, it was a light plastic dinghy (a weta) passing astern. It wasn't a 20 T stink pot dragging its arse withing 10 m, it wasn't a jet ski doing 30 knts and using the transom as target practice. There are a lot worse, and substantially more dangerous examples than a weta passing close astern. The OP did complain in a sense, as they cut in too close, and he did get an apology of sorts from the helmsman. I do sympathize with the OP, the pass was too close, but I don't support throwing the book at these guys, and I think in a busy piece of water some pragmatism is called for.

 

As I said some 6 pages ago, its best to communicate your feelings early and clearly. If you have eye contact with the helmsman, you have communication established, just shout starboard. Even if they other boat has clearly seen you, it is an effective way of saying you need to keep clear of me, so don't get too close, please. Some people enjoy flybuys, some don't. But don't let it wreck you day, and of utmost importance, make sure you enjoy your sail...

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Can't completely agree Island Time, I was out Saturday, know the conditions   and fairly sure I have the cruiser in question figured.

There was 8-10kts breeze with very slow oscilations between about 80 and 105, for a Weta (think I saw it was a Weta somewhere), bearing away without easing would have been easy.  Risks were pretty much limited to plain bad helming on the part of the dipping boat and a rudder/tiller breakage at a very wrong moment.  Agree still a bit closer than is really necessary (I'm not at all sure the multi was even racing) but, well if you're into close dips, Saturday was about perfect conditions to try them.  Speed, Wetas are really not that fast upwind, not sure their VMG would have been a whole lot more than the cruiser.

Collregs and speed is a side issue, technical yes it breaks the law but in the real world, well, if the cruiser is the one I think it is and wants to complain about that, they were breaking the same rules with respect to us and about 40 other boats as they were over five knots themselves and within 50m of other vessels and for good chunks of the time also within 200m of shore or structures.  Don't think even a H28 could sail down Auckland harbour in technical collregs compliance and avoid other boats and shore without either going to motor (slowly) or deep reefing.

Very different story in 18+ knots but issue I'm seeing is more an item of courtesy rather than danger.  One metre and presumably late bearing down, yes all a bit unnecessary, expectations though of bearing away from 100m and missing by tens of metres, not reasonable in my view.

 

I don't cruise a H28, and I only once got to five knots, and that late in my daysail, and was when the "fleet" had gone well past Bean Rock and out yonder, and there was literally no one else around at the time, but some little trailer sailor thing.  On my way back to base, I didn't get past four knots down wind...but the wind was dying a bit at that time.

 

But you may be right, that the Weta, if that is what it was, may not have been racing - but it was definitely doing over 5 knots.  

Having said that, I DO think the 5 knot rule is over the top.  I'm not going to expect a racing yacht to reduce speed just because we happen to be using the harbour at the same time.

 

I started this thread as I really was not kidding when I was asking how maneuverable these little Weta outrigger things are, because I was a bit concerned at the very close call - and I call a three feet indeed a "close call" - if anyone does not, then you are welcome to your opinion. 

I just couldn't understand what the lads were up to.  That is all.  

 

I had my camera out that  day...while I had put it below when the "almost incident" with the lads occured, I had it out earlier, and had this encounter with a racing boat.  I was only really filming when I had breathing space from the fleet, and needed to concentrate.  But I did capture this one boat overtaking me.

While it was well within 50m, and I was the windward vessel, as they were coming up behind and overtaking, it was them that had to give way if I read the Colregs correctly, and as you see in the video they did indeed give way.  No problem, and not a concern, I could see there wasn't going to be an issue - all good stuff.

 

https://youtu.be/YRge-jYMhNQ

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They were within 50m and doing more than 5 knots, still breaking the law

Yes they were breaking the law. Perhaps the law is wrong?

 

Pragmatism.

 

Both boats going parallel, same course and direction. Wake not an issue. Being polite and going beneath instead of above, so as not to rob wind and be discourteous to the cruiser. 

There was no risk of collision, intentions seemed clear, etc

 

There are laws that are important, and there are laws that aren't. Not murdering people is a fairly important law. Indicating left when exiting a round about, that is also a law. I don't think indicating left on exiting a round about is important. It is not at the same level of importance as murdering someone.

 

Not crashing the boat is important.

Avoiding near misses is important.

Passing astern or to leeward of someone at more than 5 knts within 50 meters? hmmmm

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Sorry Zozza, my bad wording.  H28 was an example of a slow boat which I thought would still break technical regs not you particularly.  Even so, cruiser I had in mind was probably different as it sounds like it was going a bit quicker.

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Perhaps I've missed this but was there any valid reason to cross this close? Was it that busy??? Were there too many boats to maintain 50m separation?

 

Without any valid reason to break the regs there I don't see the reason to stand up for breaking them

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120+ boats tacking upwind within confines of Auckland harbour, maybe 75% racing.  You pretty much can't avoid being within 50m of someone or 200m of shore.  Incoming tide so of course everyone hhugs the sides

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