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Island cruising Winter 2020?


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2 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:

Departures are being approved on a case by case basis. If you don't receive approval then you can't leave, at least not legally. 

Approvals take into consideration country of registration, citizenship of crew, residence of crew, expiry of NZ visa, border restrictions at destination, condition of vessel etc

If you're not NZ flagged and your crew have residence at your destination and your NZ visa is about to expire then approval is very likely to be granted.

Mmmmm, I'm no legal expert but I think that might be illegal under Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Which I think says that anyone with valid travel documents (such as passport and Cat 1 certificate in this example) can always EXIT their own country unless they are a criminal on the run, a debtor or some other threat to security. But otherwise, I think that's not legal for NZ to stop you leaving if you so choose. They can obviously impose all sorts of restrictions on your return - especially under C-19 - but far fewer restrictions on your right to leave.

But you'd obviously need to get a proper legal opinion if you're keen to set sail!

But meanwhile, if any immigration official at the marina tried to deny your right I would be really interested to hear their answer to "Show me the legislation that stops me setting sail today if I have valid travel documents and Cat 1?"

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48 minutes ago, Aleana said:

I'm no legal expert but I think that might be illegal under Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Which I think says that anyone with valid travel documents (such as passport and Cat 1 certificate in this example) can always EXIT their own country

Travel documents generally would include the right to enter at your destination.  Eg, citizenship, residency, visa - and of course an open border at said destination.  

48 minutes ago, Aleana said:

But meanwhile, if any immigration official at the marina tried to deny your right I would be really interested to hear their answer to "Show me the legislation that stops be setting sail today if I have valid travel documents and Cat 1?"

Splitting hairs - but the legislation is "If you have not been granted permission to leave, then you cannot leave" - so your question would need to be "why have you not given me permission to leave?" - which I am sure, if you were polite, they would answer - you might not agree with their assessment and then you would have a disputes process to go through, which could culminate in asking the court to direct customs to give you permission.

Speaking of legislation, under the current level 3 legislation, the only way to depart from a Level 3 area, (if you are not travelling for essential purposes), is via Air, there is no provision in the Act for a non essential departure via the Maritime border. 

Unlike the USA, where Citizens, (and visitors), can just up and leave, one does not have a legal right to just leave NZ - if we did, then no exit paper work would be necessary, we could just get our Cat 1 and sail away.  In NZ, (and many other countries), you have to be given permission to leave.

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Mmmm, this is quite interesting....

I don't actually think you do need permission to leave. I think that right is already part of the International Declaration of Human Rights. The onus is on NZ to show you why you can't leave, namely for the 3 main reasons I already gave (criminal, debt or security threat).

But I think we are all so conditioned to giving an explanation as to why we are leaving that we are accepting of this.

For example, at the airport, the airlines policy is to check you have the right travel documents not so much to leave NZ but to visit your destination legally. Because the airlines know that if you arrive somewhere without the right permission then the same airline is liable to fly you back home at their expense - whether you have a ticket directly home or not.

And with boating, we are used to providing the Cat 1 evidence but aside from that and a passport, I don't think there is anything else you need. I don't think you need any more permission, as I said earlier International Law says you are free to travel.

Recalling living in Europe, you typically leave a country without any need to tell people your final destination - it could be anywhere in Europe. I don't see why leaving NZ is any different? 

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Article 13(2) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948 contains the first post WWII expression of the right to leave a country. It states: “everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country”. This call for a right to leave was transformed into a human rights obligation for states in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966 (ICCPR). Article 12(2) states that “everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own”.

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1 hour ago, Aleana said:

Article 13(2) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948 contains the first post WWII expression of the right to leave a country. It states: “everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country”. This call for a right to leave was transformed into a human rights obligation for states in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights 1966 (ICCPR). Article 12(2) states that “everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own”.

Again, splitting hairs, the UDHR isn't a direct legislative tool in NZ, it's kind of indirectly implied through various polices and treaties.  However, the NZ Bill of Rights Act, which is our legislative tool, states: "18(3)Everyone has the right to leave New Zealand".

However, as you have also pointed out, there are of course limitations on your rights and freedoms.  Those limits are prescribed in law.  Eg, you cannot leave NZ with outstanding fines, or any of the other hundreds of legislated limits, including, if customs have not issued you a clearance certificate.

If you are not accepting of a customs officers decision not to grant you a clearance certificate, then you also have another right, the right to have your day in court.

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11 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

Again, splitting hairs, the UDHR isn't a direct legislative tool in NZ, it's kind of indirectly implied through various polices and treaties.  However, the NZ Bill of Rights Act, which is our legislative tool, states: "18(3)Everyone has the right to leave New Zealand".

However, as you have also pointed out, there are of course limitations on your rights and freedoms.  Those limits are prescribed in law.  Eg, you cannot leave NZ with outstanding fines, or any of the other hundreds of legislated limits, including, if customs have not issued you a clearance certificate.

If you are not accepting of a customs officers decision not to grant you a clearance certificate, then you also have another right, the right to have your day in court.

So..... I wonder what the situation would be if you had complied with all of those things and were legally 'clean' but for some reason the Customs guys decided to not issue you with a clearance doc, then if you decided not to go to court but to go sailing instead would they actually try to stop you and if so how? And if they did stop you, would they be found to have acted illegally if they had no reason to withhold clearance?

In the current climate of stringent regulations I'm probably more inclined to challenge authority on some of these points - no doubt a knee-jerk reaction to the latest L3 and impact on boating freedoms! Also true to say I feel more restless on this stuff than I did first time around. And I suspect I'm not alone!

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The Zarpe requirement is widely ignored in the Med, in many places they won't give you one and no one asks for one when you check in. We asked for one a couple of years ago leaving the US (Ketchikan) for Canada and were also told they don't offer a clearance certificate. Other places you better have one as IT says.

But back to the thread it's all pretty academic at present, after all, where would you go?

We have friends that happily made it through the blue lane to Fiji but that door seems to be closed for a while at least.

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On 18/08/2020 at 3:56 PM, darkside said:

But back to the thread it's all pretty academic at present, after all, where would you go?

 

Not that all these places are easily reachable or ‘safe’ but here is the list that I see (all open as of August 24th) …..

  •  Southeast & East Asia : Japan, Burma, Papua New Guinee
  •  South Pacific: Fiji, Galapagos, Tasmania, Guam, Hawaii, Northern Marianas Islands
  •  South Indian Ocean: Reunion Islands, Seychelles,
  •  Americas: Ecuador, Costa Rica, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama
  •  Other: Probably any country that 100% of the crew shares nationality and/or Permanent residency. (For us that’s Ireland, Canada, and the USA)

We are with you, in that it makes no sense to leave New Zealand at this time and are looking forward to summer cruising around here.

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