Safe Boating/Coll Reg 22/Nautical Protocol

[Guest]

Wanting to hear your experiences re Give-way/Stand-on situations involving ferries on regular runs & recreational craft around our harbour & islands : The Rules use the word ‘shall’ in its imperative sense. And once again it uses the proviso ‘if the circumstances of the case admit’. The Rule accepts that, for some reason, it could be dangerous to turn to starboard. Are Coll Regs to be applied pragmatically & at what distance off do they have relevance ? The Professional Skipper Mag & MNZ are encouraging discussion on this topic & your informative comments are invited on this international Nautical Protocol site - http://on.fb.me/nauticalprotocol

[wheels 543]

While ColRegs give you a Basic Foundational Rule, there are many subclauses for say, to that rule. For instance, it is every skippers responsibility to avoid a collision, whether are Stand on Vessel or not. It's kind oif like stepping out in front of traffic on a marked crossing and just plainly expecting the on coming vehicle to stop simply because that is the law. The driver may for many reasons, not have seen you. Doesn't make him right, he still maybe breaking the law, but the result is that you could die and who gives a stuff about the law when you are noting more than a Bug mark splattered over the front of a dirty great truck.

Other over riding laws are things like, Harbour by laws. These apply to the Ferries for instance. it maybe that the Harbour Bylaw gives Ferries right of way. Once again, the Ferriy skipper is responsible for avoiding collision if he can do so, but he has right of way over and above all other traffic, apart from another law that maybe a Ship in a channel with restricted movement. A Big Ship can not turn to avoid, they can not stop on a dime and so it is foolish to think yopu have any right of way. So you need to look closely at all other laws and local bylaws that will override that ColReg rule. l

[Guest]

I've found the Ferries to be pretty damn good actually. Multiple occasions they deviate well off the straight line course to avoid yachts, often when the ferry has full rights. Even seen them stop more than a few times and let a fleet slide thru in front of them, again often when they didn't have too. I have no problems with the ferries bar the occasional speed issue out by Nth Head, on the odd occasion they could have given a bit more sea room when they were passing at speed. For a harbour invested with so many low knowledge and arrogant boaters, the Ferries do bloody good.

 

As for recreational - way too many with way too much little knowledge. Usually the worst are the big fizz nasties and the very small fisho tinnies. The 'it's my harbour and I have the right to go anywhere at any speed, bugger everyone else' attitude, or so it often appears. Mind you seen some shockers by the odd, usually bigger often a AWI, yacht, much of which I put down to pure lack of knowledge of the rules and general 'etiquette' rather than just a dick on the stick.

 

I tend to run a programme that even though I know the rules the boat approaching me doesn't. Easier to change course 5 degrees and knot get into any situation as you just have no idea what the other boat is likely to do. It's knot a hard and easy programme to run with.

 

One of the biggest dangers I see on the water is people knot doing something soon enough. A few do seem to like running the chicken programme and leave things (course changes, avoiding actions, etc) until the last moment. There is, 99% of the time, zero reason to do that.

 

It's all about 'situational awareness' and sadly many do have as much as they should sometimes. But otherwise I think for the number of boats that can be on it, Akl harbour isn't anywhere near the shambles it sure could be.

[w44vi 17]

I was luck enough to go on to the bridge of a large cruise ship, the view is very impressive, but the thing that surprised me was how much the bow obscured the forward view, boats very close may not be seen, also I asked what would happen in a close quarters incident after a little prompting the skipper said my responsibility is for my crew, my passages and my ship, they had about 1000 people onboard.

[wheels 543]

I can't remember the ship, but I remember reading an article on this very point. The ship actually had a blind spot under the bow that equated to 2Nm. Just like the sign on the back of some trucks. "If you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you". For a ship it should be, "If you can't see the Bridge Windows, they can't see you".

[rigger 47]

Wanting to hear your experiences re Give-way/Stand-on situations involving ferries on regular runs & recreational craft around our harbour & islands : The Rules use the word ‘shall’ in its imperative sense. And once again it uses the proviso ‘if the circumstances of the case admit’. The Rule accepts that, for some reason, it could be dangerous to turn to starboard. Are Coll Regs to be applied pragmatically & at what distance off do they have relevance ? The Professional Skipper Mag & MNZ are encouraging discussion on this topic & your informative comments are invited on this international Nautical Protocol site - http://on.fb.me/nauticalprotocol

 

Cannot find anything on the Maritime NZ website linking to any discussion, can you provide a non facebook webpage to visit as I do not use facebook - or at the least a webpage where you are not required to login.

 

Something to remember with the colregs is the following:

 

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

( In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

 

Basically- Do not hit anything!

 

On the harbour ferries - pretty good - one company seems a bit odd sometimes with insisting on port to port even when it means they have to deviate one hell of a lot and there is no risk of collision to start with

[wheels 543]

I am thinking this may have been spam. The same post is in the SOL department. The link takes you to FB.

[grant 40]

this is the first I've heard of this type of 'consultation' and from the wording it makes me think two things, firstly it appears to be Auckland centric. There is only a couple of places that have ferries on regular runs, Auckland and north being the biggest area for volume of vessels and Welly - Picton the biggest for size. Down our way (welly) we have a siple rule about getting on the way of that much steel, don't. On the whole that works.

 

So can you please specify where you are talking about.

 

Secondly, some of the initial post seems to suggest questioning the wording and getting picky about the specific meanings. There are a few member of the maritime community (ex commercial) who do this for a hobby and seem to be more concerned with getting the academic argument right rather than dealing with the intention of the rules. This has gone to the extent of stringing along grieving families that their relatives tragic deaths were due to a miss interpretation of a pedantic argument rather than the fact that they were in the wrong place.

 

Big vs small unfortunately only has one outcome, regardless of who is right or wrong, and, as Rigger points out, all parties must take action to avoid collision.

 

I hope if this is some sort of survey that it deals in realities and not fanciful arguments that benefit no-body.

[Guest]

this is the first I've heard of this type of 'consultation' and from the wording it makes me think two things, firstly it appears to be Auckland centric. There is only a couple of places that have ferries on regular runs, Auckland and north being the biggest area for volume of vessels and Welly - Picton the biggest for size. Down our way (welly) we have a siple rule about getting on the way of that much steel, don't. On the whole that works.

 

So can you please specify where you are talking about.

 

Secondly, some of the initial post seems to suggest questioning the wording and getting picky about the specific meanings. There are a few member of the maritime community (ex commercial) who do this for a hobby and seem to be more concerned with getting the academic argument right rather than dealing with the intention of the rules. This has gone to the extent of stringing along grieving families that their relatives tragic deaths were due to a miss interpretation of a pedantic argument rather than the fact that they were in the wrong place.

 

Big vs small unfortunately only has one outcome, regardless of who is right or wrong, and, as Rigger points out, all parties must take action to avoid collision.

 

I hope if this is some sort of survey that it deals in realities and not fanciful arguments that benefit no-body.

------------------------------------------

Thank you Grant - it probably is Auckland centric & Public Interest driven by Prof. Skipper Mag. editor Keith Ingram - "Close quarter incidents with pleasure craft are leading to the increasing high level of non reporting of these type of potentially serious near misses by commercial operators - nothing happens..." presumably re prosecution by MNZ. So is it now recommended for ferry skippers to carry a camera to record the actions of other vessels that have little or no understanding of the Rule of the Road ?

[Guest]

Wanting to hear your experiences re Give-way/Stand-on situations involving ferries on regular runs & recreational craft around our harbour & islands : The Rules use the word ‘shall’ in its imperative sense. And once again it uses the proviso ‘if the circumstances of the case admit’. The Rule accepts that, for some reason, it could be dangerous to turn to starboard. Are Coll Regs to be applied pragmatically & at what distance off do they have relevance ? The Professional Skipper Mag & MNZ are encouraging discussion on this topic & your informative comments are invited on this international Nautical Protocol site - http://on.fb.me/nauticalprotocol

 

Cannot find anything on the Maritime NZ website linking to any discussion, can you provide a non facebook webpage to visit as I do not use facebook - or at the least a webpage where you are not required to login.

 

Something to remember with the colregs is the following:

 

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

( In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

 

Basically- Do not hit anything!

 

On the harbour ferries - pretty good - one company seems a bit odd sometimes with insisting on port to port even when it means they have to deviate one hell of a lot and there is no risk of collision to start with

-----------------------------------------

Thank you Rigger - if you have no Fbk a/c - I'm sure your comments will be welcome here....see also the reply to Grant

[Guest]

I've found the Ferries to be pretty damn good actually. Multiple occasions they deviate well off the straight line course to avoid yachts, often when the ferry has full rights. Even seen them stop more than a few times and let a fleet slide thru in front of them, again often when they didn't have too. I have no problems with the ferries bar the occasional speed issue out by Nth Head, on the odd occasion they could have given a bit more sea room when they were passing at speed. For a harbour invested with so many low knowledge and arrogant boaters, the Ferries do bloody good.

 

As for recreational - way too many with way too much little knowledge. Usually the worst are the big fizz nasties and the very small fisho tinnies. The 'it's my harbour and I have the right to go anywhere at any speed, bugger everyone else' attitude, or so it often appears. Mind you seen some shockers by the odd, usually bigger often a AWI, yacht, much of which I put down to pure lack of knowledge of the rules and general 'etiquette' rather than just a dick on the stick.

 

I tend to run a programme that even though I know the rules the boat approaching me doesn't. Easier to change course 5 degrees and knot get into any situation as you just have no idea what the other boat is likely to do. It's knot a hard and easy programme to run with.

 

One of the biggest dangers I see on the water is people knot doing something soon enough. A few do seem to like running the chicken programme and leave things (course changes, avoiding actions, etc) until the last moment. There is, 99% of the time, zero reason to do that.

 

It's all about 'situational awareness' and sadly many do have as much as they should sometimes. But otherwise I think for the number of boats that can be on it, Akl harbour isn't anywhere near the shambles it sure could be.

----------------------------------------------------------

 

Thank you Knot Me - most ferries do the decent thing, as you do - have you experienced a disgruntled ferry skipper running a chicken programme to educate those thought to have insufficient knowledge. Btw, what is an AWI yacht ?

[Guest]

AWI = Average white import. Can be sail or power.

 

I can't recall seeing a ferry doing a chicken on anyone (in the last decade odd, they did in the past) but with the number of boats on the water some days it sure could look like some were. If anything I'd say I've seen a pile more 'precautionary' moves i.e. big slow downs to total stops, large course changes and the like to avoid some dick in a 14ft tinnie or similar, done by ferries than I ever have in the past.

 

Being a harbour user for many decades, I'd say the ferry drivers are a lot more 'yacht' aware then they ever were i.e. they now seem to have or at least demonstrate a better understanding of the way a yacht moves, and that some are in a race at the time, so you can often see then make a early and voluntary small course adjustment well in advance of 'needing to do something' to avoid a indecent or potential. That includes going around a race fleet rather than the old school technique of trying to split it into man many pieces as possible. I'm sure this extra time/fuel must add up eventually but that is off-set by knot so many other harbour users wanting to give the odd ferry driver a quite bash behind the bike shed, so to speak.

 

All of that is usually done even though the ferry has full rights. I'd call the drivers these days a shite lot more, courteous isn't quite the right word even though they are, can't quite pin the word down but one that means more 'other harbour user tolerant' and in being so tend to pick courses, sometimes speeds, to minimise impact on say a yacht race fleet or other vessels 'doing something' that limits their courses/manoeuvrability. I suppose 'situational aware' is close and by that mean they seem a lot more aware of what the situation is or likely to be on yachts they may come into close vicinity of as well as their own vessel.

 

I am told the drivers run a programme a bit like me, they also are quite aware the other boat/s may have zero understanding of the rules so try knot to put either boat in a position where something bad may happen. Mind you these days the Ferries themselves are a lot more manoeuvrable and nimble compared to some of those old school ones.

 

Power boats - total lottery. Some know the rules, some don't but just make sure they never go near anyone else and some are just random likely to do anything loonies.

[wheels 543]

) but with the number of boats on the water some days it sure could look like some were. If anything I'd say I've seen a pile more 'precautionary' moves i.e. big slow downs to total stops, large course changes

Just in general, several points KM has made bring thoughts to mind, like there are far more boats out there now. So sometimes a ferry has little option other than stop or slow, rather than change course.

I also think we see a bit more proffesionalism from the proffesionals today because OSH have added requirements in regard to ensuring safety of Passengers and Staff. Not that the safety aspect has never been there in the past, but the fact that it is constantly drummed in. And also competition means you deliver a service that is of top proffesional quality to ensure you continue to get your customers returning and not run up a bad reputation on the water.

Who has been on the road and has had a reps car tear past you in some stupid dangerous manner and they fail to forget that the company name is splashed allover the vehicle.

There are certainly many varied differences and reasons and so on compared to years ago.

But certainly the private launch owners are stuffing it up for everyone. Not so much sailboats only because they don't really go fast enough nor create a huge wake that goes on for ever. But if these highspeed launch owners don't have their wings clipped soon, it is going to stuff it up for everyone and we will be forced into licencing, which will achieve sweet all apart from more beaurocratic BS and more money out of our pockets and idiots still out on the water.

[wheels 543]

Oh and to add, I think Skippers feel themselves as more than just a boat driver these days. The occupation is looked upon in a proffesional manner now. Just like truck drivers. Many no longer just see themselves as guys that stear trucks. They are Proffesional Heavy Transport Drivers/Operators.

[Guest]

Here is the type of situation The Prof. Skipper Magazine editor & MNZ are suggesting could be Public Interest - perhaps Wheels, Knot Me, W44vi, Rigger, Grant & others might have their opinions to share ?

How about this more or less crossing situation drawn on a square/circle with Nth, Sth, East & West ? Your vessel is crossing W to E & is possibly Give-way vessel to Stand-on ferry coming at you from SE at 30deg on your Stbd bow. Your speed is 6.5kts, the ferry 15.5kts & the ferry at .6nm away brings out a camera to record you on his port bow in the process of crossing which you could have with .25 nm clearance if he had kept his course & speed. Unfortunately because in his opinion you should have turned stbd at .6 nm, he now wants to make an issue of your ignorance so he gradually turns from a NW course of 286T to 297T reducing the clearance you could've had, to a close quarters situation he can complain about. Unfortunately he doesn't sound his first series of sound signals to indicate his concern until he is 80mtrs away, that is on an inadequate hand held aersol horn which doesn't bring a response from you, he doesn't use his vhf & you carry on across as you expected to all the time especially as the ferry should've been turning to a Westerly course astern of you if it was to be on it's regular run.

Theoretically you could've upset his intention to turn to his port/West course if you had turned stbd as a possible Give-way vessel but you could tell by the changing bearings at the initial .6 nm position you were ok to hold your course & speed.

I believe the ferry erred in bringing out a camera instead of sounding an adequate horn, then by turning 11deg towards you instead of maintaining his course & speed if he thought he was a Stand-on vessel.

Could a heavy ferry reduce his speed appreciably from 15.5 kts within 80 mtrs even by putting his engines astern if he felt he had to avoid collision?

Wouldn't he have been better off turning to his port as his regular run would've dictated ? Hope that's not too complicated to follow.

[wheels 543]

Was the other boat under power or under sail??

Was it daylight or Dark???

Was it Red or Blue??

Did it have a racing stripe??

What position was the Moon and did we have a Solar storm at the time??

Why would the ferry alter course to purposely make the other boat look at fault?? I don't get any of this. What is the real underlying current to all this Mel???

[Elenya 33]

Nothing to do with the prosecution underway against you by Maritime New Zealand is it? I think the yacht Classique has been involved in illegal charter work, not clearing customs when departing New Zealand and several other dodgy activities. I also remeber watching Classique sail through the spectator boats at the start of the first America's Cup, and I mean the really tightly packed small boats at the start box area.

[wheels 543]

Arrrr, so the plot thickens. The "tone" of these questions has just never seemed right from the very beginning.

So I wonder, if it was true that a ferry video'd the "alledged boat" if it was infact video evidence that the "alledged boat" was operating commercially without a commercial licence and not that the "alledged boat" was actually in the wrong re the collision rules.

[Guest]

Was the other boat under power or under sail??

Was it daylight or Dark???

Was it Red or Blue??

Did it have a racing stripe??

What position was the Moon and did we have a Solar storm at the time??

Why would the ferry alter course to purposely make the other boat look at fault?? I don't get any of this. What is the real underlying current to all this Mel???

---------------------------------------------

Hello Wheels, it might be a bit much to comprehend but in clear, calm conditions, high tide, no other traffic of concern, both under power - ferry red & white, no stripe. Your "why?" could be explained in part by Elenya's post. The undercurrent is to find out at what point the Give-way/Stand on applies in the outer harbour between recreational craft & ferries on regular runs & is .6nm distance appropriate ? The Rules use the word ‘shall’ in its imperative sense. And it uses the proviso ‘if the circumstances of the case admit’. The Rule accepts that, for some reason, it could be dangerous to turn to starboard

[Guest]

Nothing to do with the prosecution underway against you by Maritime New Zealand is it? I think the yacht Classique has been involved in illegal charter work, not clearing customs when departing New Zealand and several other dodgy activities. I also remeber watching Classique sail through the spectator boats at the start of the first America's Cup, and I mean the really tightly packed small boats at the start box area.

-------------------------------------

Hello Eleyna, this is driven by the said "Public Interest" in that prosecution. Your misinformation re Cqe's alleged illegal operating may stem from The Prof.Skipper Mag editor's creating of a Pirates web site in 2006 with Cqe as it's main entry when that editor & his associates were disappointed that MNZ failed to prosecute because MNZ in its wisdom, determined Cqe was entitled to sail with Co-operative, Cost Share Crew & had no need to clear customs on a trip to the Kermadecs as it is part of NZ & the Minerva Reefs are below the water with no ownership - there have been no dodgy activities as much as some have tried to find over the past 10 years. Cqe is a recognisable craft so she doesn't need to draw attention to herself esp during America's Cups, considering I chartered with her during the '86/'87 America's Cup in Fremantle & was the only yacht to sail up to San Diego supporting Michael Faye's Big Yacht Challenge America's Cup - that trip was via Canada then down to Costa Rica & back via Tahiti, Samoa, Tonga, Figi etc - she was quite easily handled as I sailed solo back from the Caribbean in time for our Millenium & America's Cups also.