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Where to get good quality batteries- not for marine, for a electric trolley tug


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Cheap batteries have only lasted 6 months.    Where can I get a good quality battery of the same dimensions.?

uses 2 of them for 24v, but still it would draw a fair current, and tend to deep cycle

 


 

cheers

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IMO if you have dead batteries after 6 months, they are the wrong type for the job, or they are used and charged incorrectly. Depth of discharge and charging voltages, as well as storage voltages, are critical for lead based batteries. Most modern batteries that die early are murdered,

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I suspect you are right IT, both in therms of choice and treatment.  Unfortunately with multiple staff using it, it does not get treated nicely.  I suspect It really needs much larger batteries, but  don’t really want to spend the time rebuilding to fit them!

it does have a agm charger built in, so  would probably last ok if it was kept on charge when not being used...  sounds easy right.

have emailed the guy you suggested aardvarkash

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Agm charger. Hmm, unless it is programmable, it's unlikely to charge at the right voltage. Read the spec sheet for it,  then get a battery that suits the voltages it does. 10ths of  volt matter. The right bulk and float voltages matter. Or get a programmable charger and don't use the built in one.

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 I guess that’s a possibility..  I was going on blindly believing the manufacturer would get it right. They sell these things to airports etc for moving trolleys, and are 14k663E0B67-FD05-4504-A86F-22728009DE1C.thumb.jpeg.b4da8520ee19512a35a96423c93e0d27.jpeg+ new.

its their own brand label on the charger, so not a lot to be found on it.

seriously thinking about moving things around now to fit a larger battery set now.

 

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Doesn't look promising. 24v won't charge a 24v battery, same as 12 won't charge a 12v one, normally around 14.4. Must be a product data sheet, maybe on manufacturer website?

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The IUOU designation is the important point here. Actually the letters hould read IUoU. The charger may have 24V on it, but that is not just what it is. IUOU is actually DIN 41773 and designates the specifics required for 3 stage charging of the batteries. 
 I =Current
U =Voltage. ( U and not V will be make sense in my description below)
oU= is also Voltage (as above)
In this situation, the I is maintained as a constant current bulk charge. The Voltage is varied.
oU is a constant Voltage stage and takes care of the absorption charge and trickle charge stage.
The idea is to be able to charge the Gells as fast as possible, yet not cause them to gas. The parameters will be a lot more complex and possibly created specificially to suit the specific batteries that were in the machine.

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Bugger, I thought this would be simple.   I’ve learnt something though, I though AGMs charged at the same voltage.

i guess I’m off to the nz distributor /supplier then.  I was reluctant to even ask for a price given the list price for a new tug, which is not much more than a golf trolley motor!

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Don't panic. They are nothing special. If the picture of those are the original of course. Just a 20Ahr Sealed Gel is all they are and any sealed Gel of same size will suffice. The problem is that these are not great at a continual everyday deep cycle situation. These kind of Gels are designed for Standby operation where they stay charged up for long periods and then if power goes out, they provide current for a time till the power comes back on and are topped back up again.
You could get away with a deep cycle AGM or FLA even. But if you go larger capacity to get greater duration from the machine, then you are going to need greater charge time with that 5A charger.
Or you could put something larger in and replace the charger as well to suit. The problem will be what in a larger capacity is going to fit in the same area.
If you really want to get carried away, go Lithium and have something that can provide good service all day.

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Gel batteries have much lower charge voltage than AGM. The problem is the batteries you had in it were Gel type not AGM. Gel batteries REQUIRE a special Gel charger which operates at significantly lower voltage than an AGM charger. If you charge a gel battery at AGM or flooded lead acid voltages then bubbles will very quickly form in the gel from overcharging. The bubbles separate the gel from the plates and the battery becomes useless.

AGM batteries are much more tolerant and can be charged by a normal lead acid battery charger but they will last longer if you use a charger with special AGM settings. Most AGM batteries have similar charge voltage settings, there can be small variations but essentially any AGM battery will probably be OK in this unit with the existing charger.

AGM batteries have fibreglass mats between the plates which hold the gel against the plates and make it more resistant to bubbling away. You still don't want to over charge an AGM because even with glass mats it will cause a bit of the gel to bubble away. AGM and Gel batteries cannot be topped up so once the acid has boiled off they are dead.

Conventional flooded lead acid cells can be topped up with deionised water, which means it doesn't matter if you charge them at slightly higher voltage as long as you remember to top them up regularly. They can really bubble away and let off gas when charging so need to be vented.

For this kind of traction application flooded lead acid is still the best (Trojan is a good brand). Trojan also do AGM batteries. I guess this unit is not always vertical so there's a risk of flooded batteries spilling. AGM would be chosen for zero maintenance and no risk of acid spilling. 

So, the answer is get a set of AGM batteries of the same spec as the originals. There's no need to get bigger ones, your batteries only failed because they were gel and not AGM.

When selecting any kind of lead acid batteries for a heavy duty deep cycling application like this then the heaviest duty ones are literally the heaviest - thicker lead plates are more resistant to buckling and will last longer but they weigh more and cost more. If you compare the KG weight of two batteries of the same spec and one brand is heavier, you can be pretty sure that's the better brand.

Trojan produce different types of battery for different applications. Their "motive" range are the really heavy ones for traction purposes. An "H" on the end of the model number is for extra heavy plates which allow you to discharge it deeper more often.

 

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Please do not take any of the following as me patronising you. None of your post is wrong, I am just expanding on some points because it's not quite so simple.

12 hours ago, syohana said:

Gel batteries have much lower charge voltage than AGM.

Sort of. In this "tug" situation, it is about getting the charge back in to the Gel as fast as possible while as you correctly state, not causing gas in the Gel. However, simple chargers, or those specified for FLA/AGM can also be used, providing the charge current remains below the threshold of Gassing.
 

12 hours ago, syohana said:

AGM batteries are much more tolerant and can be charged by a normal lead acid battery charger but they will last longer if you use a charger with special AGM settings. Most AGM batteries have similar charge voltage settings, there can be small variations but essentially any AGM battery will probably be OK in this unit with the existing charger.

Only in some points are they better. There is also a big advantage over AGM. Gel can dissipate heat much better than AGM nd heat is the killer of AGM. One again, providing the discharge/charge current is kept below the point of Gassing, the Gel can actually last much longer than a AGM. AGM's suffer from drying out if they are allowed to get too warm.

 

12 hours ago, syohana said:

An "H" on the end of the model number is for extra heavy plates which allow you to discharge it deeper more often.

No heavier plates do not allow you to discharge deeper with no consequence to the battery. Any battery, not matter how thick a plate is, begins to deteriorate from the point of where it moves from full charge to a discharging situation. The deeper the discharge, the faster sulphate is produced on the plate. A battery is a chemical factory. It is a reaction that when it is producing a current, it changes the Lead Oxide and Acid to a Lead Sulphate on the plate. During charge, the reverse happens and the Sulphate is turned back into Lead Oxide and Acid. However, there is always some material used up never to be recreated again. And just how much of that happens is determined by how deep the battery is discharged. The time the battery remains discharged affects what happens with that Sulphate. The Sulphate in short term remains soft and can be easily changed back to the Lead Oxide etc. But if left too long, it crystalises and goes very hard and no amount of charging with return it back to Lead Oxide etc. The hard material blocks the surface of the plate and reduces the Batteries ability to supply it's normal current and accept charge. Those pulse chargers can sometimes break that coating away from th plates and seemingly bring the Battery back to life, but the resultant loss of plate material means the Battery will never provide rated capacity again.
Plate thickness is about the capacity..... ability to produce current for long periods. Thick plates are poor at producing large currents fast. A start plate being thin, produces current quickly, but has poor capacity.

 

12 hours ago, syohana said:

If you compare the KG weight of two batteries of the same spec and one brand is heavier, you can be pretty sure that's the better brand

While that is true, there can also be slight variances that can make one FLA or AGM better than others of same weight. That information is usually supplied by the Manufacturer. I have always found that the makers that supply large amounts of detailed information tend to also have the better batteries. They will give you all the advanced information and what exactly the Battery has been desinged to do. There are different end games the maker was thinking about when they designed the battery, even within the family of say AGM or FLA. We all know the range FLA can cover. Some AGM's are designed for UPS only situations and some are designed for start or deep cycle. Gel are usually designed for UPS duty.
Those that make a poor to average battery do not give much in the way of specs. Apart from Voltage, some kind of current rating that is not usually tied with how that rating was achieved. And that the battery comes in a black box with lugs.
 

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Wheels:

There's nothing wrong with gel batteries when using a special gel charger. The OP is using an AGM charger so it's rather academic to discuss the advantages of gel. My analysis was based on the OPs specific requirements rather than a more general comparison of AGM and gel.

AGM batteries are the correct solution for the OP and if he's not sure what brand to get then picking the heaviest available at the right physical size is a good rule of thumb to ensure he doesn't buy rubbish.

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Those are pretty standard looking 12v 20ah motorcycle batteries.  They will be about 180mm-ish long x 75mm ish wide x 160-170mm height and around 6kgs.  Any batteries you will find online with those approx specs should work fine with the terminals being on the correct side, and as it has already been eluded to get a AGM over GEL because of the charger, and if possible and make sure they get full charged as often as possible for longivity.  

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That’s awesome information, thanks guys.  I knew it was worthwhile posting up on here.  I could have so easily repeated the same mistake, using the specs off the existing battery.

i don’t know if I accidentally swapped in gel batteries, or if I just copied what had already been incorrectly put in.

either way, AGM of the same size is the next logical step.

thanks again, the wealth of knowledge in here is fantastic

 

 

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On 9/05/2021 at 6:31 PM, Jason128 said:

That’s awesome information, thanks guys.  I knew it was worthwhile posting up on here.  I could have so easily repeated the same mistake, using the specs off the existing battery.

i don’t know if I accidentally swapped in gel batteries, or if I just copied what had already been incorrectly put in.

either way, AGM of the same size is the next logical step.

thanks again, the wealth of knowledge in here is fantastic

 

 

What size is the drive motor? That tug has a capacity of 1000kg per

https://movexx.com/product/t1000-basic/

which will need a bit of grunt to get it moving. 20aHr is nothing even for a well geared motor running for any length of time.

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The factory supplied battery with the t1000-basic is a 24v 22Ah agm battery. The built-in battery charger is a 24v 5A agm charger. Agm batteries require charging at a rate of 0.2 - 0.3C which for a 20Ah battery is 4-6 amps.

Using a larger capacity battery will extend the usage time of the tug but will also increase the charging time. Two things kill or as IT puts it murder agm batteries. First is taking the battery below 50% depth of discharge which for 12v batteries is around 12.06v and 24.12v for 24v batteries.

The second thing that kills agm batteries is leaving them in a Partial State of Charge (PSoC). Agm batteries need to be very regularly charged fully i.e to 100% SoC. 

I would stick with the specs of the supplied battery i.e 24v 20Ah and ensure that when the tug is not in use it is plugged in and charging.

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13 hours ago, kiwi_jon said:

Two things kill or as IT puts it murder agm batteries. First is taking the battery below 50% depth of discharge which for 12v batteries is around 12.06v and 24.12v for 24v batteries.

This is what I suspect is happening

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On 11/05/2021 at 12:22 PM, marinheiro said:

This is what I suspect is happening

Yes, I suspect you are right, it is a fairly large motor and load for such a small battery.  

i have the correct spec batters installed, and we will see how long they last.

 

thanks everyone for the help...  I was destined to put the wrong type in again it it wasn’t for the advice.

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