Jump to content

Defining a blue-water cruiser


Recommended Posts

Interview with CEO of Kraken Yachts. An interesting watch if you’re bored of discussion on NZ Cat 1 and if you’re interested on what other parts of the world make of their own ‘offshore’ requirements snd the knock-on effect on the wider boatbuilding industry.

If you want to skip the preamble and jump to the juicy bits start around 4:00 min.

Trigger warning: if you’ve got a production boat and you’re precious about it’s seakeeping abilities prepare to be offended…

https://youtu.be/YNHCHp8yjcE
 

Link to post
Share on other sites

New 60 ft boats are beyond most people, especially his ones, which are nice, but certainly not budget vessels. 
I watched the video, marketing stuff for his boats IMO. To say bolted on keels are not structurally up to crossing oceans is simply wrong, and to use Cheeki Rafiki as an example (a boat with existing damage from grounding, not properly repaired, and a lot of blue water hard racing use) is, IMO misleading. Look at the stats for the round the world rallies etc, there are a lot - the majority of the fleet - of production boats crossing oceans every year, almost all without issues.

However, I believe that, as he points out, the EU standards for offshore, Ocean A, is way to low. 5m waves and 40 knot winds should be expected, and considerably more on occasion. The last thing any skipper or crew needs, is to think the boat isn’t up to the conditions….

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Island Time said:

New 60 ft boats are beyond most people, especially his ones, which are nice, but certainly not budget vessels. 
I watched the video, marketing stuff for his boats IMO. To say bolted on keels are not structurally up to crossing oceans is simply wrong, and to use Cheeki Rafiki as an example (a boat with existing damage from grounding, not properly repaired, and a lot of blue water hard racing use) is, IMO misleading. Look at the stats for the round the world rallies etc, there are a lot - the majority of the fleet - of production boats crossing oceans every year, almost all without issues.

However, I believe that, as he points out, the EU standards for offshore, Ocean A, is way to low. 5m waves and 40 knot winds should be expected, and considerably more on occasion. The last thing any skipper or crew needs, is to think the boat isn’t up to the conditions….

True IT and where’s the evidence that twin rudders are a structural risk as well.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that’s a pretty fair assessment. A new Kraken is a pipe-dream for most people and as I said some of his opinions come with a ‘trigger warning’ but it’s also fair that he has accumulated a lot of good ideas and combined them all into a single package.

If I think back to all my previous boats and the progression from one to the other… I can think of many examples where I’ve thought ‘Oh that’s a shame, this bit was actually designed a little bit better on my previous (smaller) boat’. Overall we tend to consider our next boat an upgrade with many improvements but it’s also true every boat has flaws. So I get his desire to try to eliminate as many of those flaws as possible by designing his personal idea of a perfect boat.

He was fortunate enough to be in the position to be designing / building / buying 60ft+ new yachts which few people are. But no doubt a small number of other cruisers with deep pockets will be convinced enough to buy a Kraken. We’ll never see 1000s of them but the odd one or two might appear in NZ in coming years…

Link to post
Share on other sites

My definition of a blue water cruiser would be one that can come through 60kn in open water without undue concern,. After that it's all a matter of personal choice.

But I do have some pet peeves.

Dinghy storage.  How can any designer call a boat a bwc if the dinghy hasn't been accommodated at the design stage? Not just toss it on deck or bolt on some nasty davitts after it's been built.

At least 2 single bunks with leecloths parallel to the centerline and near the middle of the boat.

A galley from which hot food can be prepared in bad weather.

A toilet that can be used in bad weather. 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

My definition of a blue water cruiser would be one that can come through 60kn in open water without undue concern,. After that it's all a matter of personal choice.

But I do have some pet peeves.

Dinghy storage.  How can any designer call a boat a bwc if the dinghy hasn't been accommodated at the design stage? Not just toss it on deck or bolt on some nasty davitts after it's been built.

At least 2 single bunks with leecloths parallel to the centerline and near the middle of the boat.

A galley from which hot food can be prepared in bad weather.

A toilet that can be used in bad weather. 

and a deepish, not too big, well protected cockpit, preferably with a hard dodger. Don't like the modern trend where the helm is almost at deck level 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Island Time said:

Ocean A, is way to low. 5m waves and 40 knot

I suspect if this was fixed the vast majority of issues with modern boat designs would go away. 

It's what you get when you let the designers and builders make their own rules to comply with, or at least have too much ability to lobby for their own benefit.

The keel punching out the bottom of the J boat in the fastnet says it all. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

For someone exploring options it was worth a watch. I can handle bolt on keels but I do find it odd that skeg rudders aren't more common.

Along with dinghy storage, it does seem like getting on and off the boat into the water is an after thought on a lot of bluewater boats.

Def a marketing piece but what isnt.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Black Panther said:

 

Dinghy storage.  How can any designer call a boat a bwc if the dinghy hasn't been accommodated at the design stage? Not just toss it on deck or bolt on some nasty davitts after it's been built.

 

What are your thoughts on what it should be?

On say a 40' keel boat

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

Another thought is that nearly every blue water sailor I know buys the boatvthey can afford and lives with a number of compromises.

and even with a blank cheque you still have to compromise. My dream fleet includes at least 3 different boats for differing environments

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Twin rudders are more likely to hit an object, just because they are not behind the keel. A standard spade rudder has the keel for protection - on an odd occasion, something may hit a rudder, not a keel - like a surfacing whale, or even a rock if you are coming down a wave.....

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Island Time said:

Twin rudders are more likely to hit an object, just because they are not behind the keel. 

Sounds like a design flaw IT. The twin rudders should be directly behind the keels, assuming you have the correct number of hulls.

Combining this thread with the one that has evolved into a Cat 1 discussion, we had one inspector who demanded we lift the boat so he could check the keels were bonded well to the hull with no sign of cracking at the joint. I argued the keels were designed to be sacrificial but that made no difference. We found another Cat 1 inspector.

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, darkside said:

Sounds like a design flaw IT. The twin rudders should be directly behind the keels, assuming you have the correct number of hulls.

Combining this thread with the one that has evolved into a Cat 1 discussion, we had one inspector who demanded we lift the boat so he could check the keels were bonded well to the hull with no sign of cracking at the joint. I argued the keels were designed to be sacrificial but that made no difference. We found another Cat 1 inspector.

the twin rudders are another example of compromise - the current trend of wide sterned production boats (following IMOCA trends) have an issue with a centre rudder lifting out of the water at a moderate angle of heel, (unless the rudder is placed well forward), so the solution has been to adopt twin rudders. The IMOCA boats (not sure about Volvo) typically have  kick up rudders and most carry a spare in case of hitting something.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Clipper said:

What are your thoughts on what it should be?

On say a 40' keel boat

The best I have ever seen is on a Catana catamaran. Fast and efficient and ready to sail away in seconds. But catamarans have a big advantage here.

A dinghy garage up the transom is cool but most people on the planet can't afford a boat like that.

In the early days of inflatables the Avon Redcrest/redseal was deflated and put below for passages.(Cav 32).

Bolgers Loose Moose was designed with two cheap "disposable" dinghies as part of the lifelines.

Davitts I treat as an evil I have to live with. But if you go that route make them strong and easy to use, higher the dinghy is the better.  I use mine for coastal but the Bumblebee is fully deflated for offshore,  part of the reason I don't have a rib.

I really like some of Tad Robert's drawings where the dinghy lives under davitts but can be lifted on top of them for the long stuff. I'll try and find a link.

I inherited inadequate davitts and now have the little sailing dink as well. The plan is the sailing dinghy between masts upside down in chocks and Bumblebee in the davitts. Worked fine on my recent trip to Houhora. For offshore the inflatable is deflated and stows under the Delta. Yet to be tested , thank you Covid you bitch.

If I murdered my wife and married a billionaire I might ask a designer to include something like Tad's idea in a boat I would prefer.

 

No ultimate solution, just compromises.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...