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Replacing a internal diesel engine with an outboard


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Thanks for the info about the hose. I think the water pump is not going to hold out much longer by the looks... I have sent you an email about the electric motor.

Adding photo of what looks like a header tank at the top of the separate heat exchanger.

IMG_4575 (1).jpeg

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Another thought for the purpose of that hose. If it wasn't clipped up in the top corner of the coachroof then I'd say it was an emergency bilge pump. Close the seacock and open the valve on the end of the pipe, then the engine will pump water out of anywhere you put the end of that hose. I still think anti siphon based on where it goes though.

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47 minutes ago, Tigermoth said:

 I think the water pump is not going to hold out much longer by the looks...

Another thought...

As a temporary solution to get you sailing this summer you could dump the heat exchanger, header tank and the leaky impeller pump and just cool the engine with raw sea water just going through the engine cooling circuit and into the exhaust. Throw in an anode and it should last at least a year or two until the rust gets it. Maybe it was originally raw water cooled anyway? Perhaps it was a lake boat on fresh water though?

It's a good heavy thick block, won't rust through in a hurry and should cope with sea water for a while. You could simplify and get all that crap out of your cabin!

EDIT: As for the oil leak, it's a feature, called "self changing oil", you just keep adding new oil in the top and never have to drain the old oil out.

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This install is a mess, but it's accessible and pretty straight forward to fix. The motor itself looks like some gaskets have been poorly dealt with, with what appears to be a gasket shelac dribbled out.  Personally I'd pull off all the stupidly placed ancillaries, and relocate more sensibly so a decent engine cover, with sound insulation can be used, and minimum possible waste of cabin space.

But 1st, get a kit and rebuild the water pump, clean the engine with degreaser, then start it and locate the oil leak, likely to be a poor gasket seal dripping on a rotating part is all, or maybe an oil seal. 

The cooling system water supply needs re-configuring. Should be from the thru hull to a strainer, to the raw water pump, to the heat exchanger then the engine. No stupid T's, etc. A sealed (inside the boat) raw water system cannot back siphon, and does not need an anti siphon loop, plus there is no need to have the heat exchanger up above the engine like that. The exhaust does need a water trap, so water cannot back flow and fill the engine! Keep it simple!

Oh, and re the post above about raw water cooling. Could be done, raw water cooled engines with cast iron blocks normally wear out before they rust away, but I'd keep the heat exchanger if it's serviceable.

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Thanks both - great advice. My plan is to do the transom mount and use my existing outboard (6hp Johnson) to start with (so I can do a bit of sailing on the harbour) and then start working on the diesel.

Do you know where i would get the kit to rebuilt the water pump? I have emailed the Lister Petter dealer but suspect this model is too old.

I might see if I can replace the exhaust pipe so that I can move the exhaust water trap in behind the engine so I can use that berth. I'd like to have room for both kids to stay overnight at some point so would like to restore the berths to working order. They originally have a canvas base that is tied onto the tubing around the edge of each berth - quite a neat solution to the lack of space!

266751224_IMG_458614.thumb.png.ca3c2c0825fbcc4dd6221b2bf5a5cfdc.png

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1 hour ago, Tigermoth said:

Thanks both - great advice. My plan is to do the transom mount and use my existing outboard (6hp Johnson) to start with (so I can do a bit of sailing on the harbour) and then start working on the diesel.

Do you know where i would get the kit to rebuilt the water pump? I have emailed the Lister Petter dealer but suspect this model is too old.

I might see if I can replace the exhaust pipe so that I can move the exhaust water trap in behind the engine so I can use that berth. I'd like to have room for both kids to stay overnight at some point so would like to restore the berths to working order. They originally have a canvas base that is tied onto the tubing around the edge of each berth - quite a neat solution to the lack of space!

266751224_IMG_458614.thumb.png.ca3c2c0825fbcc4dd6221b2bf5a5cfdc.png

The pump will be probably be a Jabsco or Johnson, the model no. should be on the cover. there are agents in Auckland, parts are pricey but once done you probably wont need to go there again. (but do carry a spare impellor) (the pump) probably looks worse than it is, a clean and "polish" it could look like new.The rest as Island Time says. Interesting that the ex pipe doesn't seem to be cooled yet it is clamped into a (Rubber) hose??? Cleaned up and a tidy box over it you would hardly know it is there, until you start it.

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2 hours ago, Tigermoth said:

Thanks both - great advice. My plan is to do the transom mount and use my existing outboard (6hp Johnson) to start with (so I can do a bit of sailing on the harbour) and then start working on the diesel.

Do you know where i would get the kit to rebuilt the water pump? I have emailed the Lister Petter dealer but suspect this model is too old.

I might see if I can replace the exhaust pipe so that I can move the exhaust water trap in behind the engine so I can use that berth. I'd like to have room for both kids to stay overnight at some point so would like to restore the berths to working order. They originally have a canvas base that is tied onto the tubing around the edge of each berth - quite a neat solution to the lack of space!

266751224_IMG_458614.thumb.png.ca3c2c0825fbcc4dd6221b2bf5a5cfdc.png

Just a comment, the fuel filter looks to have a load of sh*t in it. The glass bowl at the back. I'd clean that out, put in new fuel filters and new, clean diesel. Either dump all the stuff in your fuel tank, or use a small fuel can with clean fuel in it. Note, if you do this, make sure the return pipe goes into the same can. The fuel pump circulates loads more fuel than is used for running the engine. The injector pump just takes what it needs. Using a small fuel can is a good way of seeing if you have a diesel bug problem. The basic symptoms you have, engine running for a bit and dieing, sounds like diesel bug. If the boat was sitting for ages before you bought it, the conditions are ripe for diesel bug. It will look like snotty sh*t in your glass bowl fuel filter.

This might fix your immediate problem of the engine not running. There will be another conventional paper cartridge fuel filter closer to the engine. Change that and bleed the engine, and it may well run fine. Note, the oil leak is nothing to do with diesel bug. That is a special design feature of old engines ;-)

Changing all the pipe work is a good idea, but it is longer term and wont impact the immediate running of the engine. Note, if it is diesel bug, you effectively need to remove the fuel tank to clean it properly. This is likely to be a pain in the arse job. Before we did this we used a 40l outboard fuel tank (red plastic) as a test bed, and a back up if the bug returned. Has a fuel pick up and fuel gauge, and breather. Just tap a return line with a screwed fitting back to it. The amount of fuel that engine will consume, a 40l tank will last you 2 or 3 years (mwahaha)

PS, if it is diesel bug, you will be able to get that current set up to run reliably enough. If you want a back-up plan in the interim, take a tender / dinghy when sailing, it is very easy to put the outboard on the dinghy, tie the dinghy amid ships and motor the boat like that. You do need two people though. The outboard will have sufficient power, and is very easy to steer / handle when tied to the side. Either that, or become a Coast Guard member (which is a good idea anyway).

PPS, we even use the outboard fuel line priming bulb to help bleed the engine. It is shed loads easier than trying to pick the fuel up first time with the little priming pump. You still need to use the little priming pump, but you can fill the pipes and get the air out far faster with a conventional priming bulb.

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32 minutes ago, Fish said:

Just a comment, the fuel filter looks to have a load of sh*t in it. The glass bowl at the back. I'd clean that out, put in new fuel filters and new, clean diesel. Either dump all the stuff in your fuel tank, or use a small fuel can with clean fuel in it. Note, if you do this, make sure the return pipe goes into the same can. The fuel pump circulates loads more fuel than is used for running the engine. The injector pump just takes what it needs. Using a small fuel can is a good way of seeing if you have a diesel bug problem. The basic symptoms you have, engine running for a bit and dieing, sounds like diesel bug. If the boat was sitting for ages before you bought it, the conditions are ripe for diesel bug. It will look like snotty sh*t in your glass bowl fuel filter.

This might fix your immediate problem of the engine not running. There will be another conventional paper cartridge fuel filter closer to the engine. Change that and bleed the engine, and it may well run fine. Note, the oil leak is nothing to do with diesel bug. That is a special design feature of old engines ;-)

Changing all the pipe work is a good idea, but it is longer term and wont impact the immediate running of the engine. Note, if it is diesel bug, you effectively need to remove the fuel tank to clean it properly. This is likely to be a pain in the arse job. Before we did this we used a 40l outboard fuel tank (red plastic) as a test bed, and a back up if the bug returned. Has a fuel pick up and fuel gauge, and breather. Just tap a return line with a screwed fitting back to it. The amount of fuel that engine will consume, a 40l tank will last you 2 or 3 years (mwahaha)

PS, if it is diesel bug, you will be able to get that current set up to run reliably enough. If you want a back-up plan in the interim, take a tender / dinghy when sailing, it is very easy to put the outboard on the dinghy, tie the dinghy amid ships and motor the boat like that. You do need two people though. The outboard will have sufficient power, and is very easy to steer / handle when tied to the side. Either that, or become a Coast Guard member (which is a good idea anyway).

PPS, we even use the outboard fuel line priming bulb to help bleed the engine. It is shed loads easier than trying to pick the fuel up first time with the little priming pump. You still need to use the little priming pump, but you can fill the pipes and get the air out far faster with a conventional priming bulb.

I second the outboard primer pump, I've used one for the last 18 years, It can be where it is most accessible, and yes the bug is a bugger to remove. your filters will be a give away if you have it. I think Fish is talking about the water trap sight glass???

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Thanks Steve and Fish - great info. I will see if I can remove the fuel tank as it is just below the companionway door and give it a good clean out.

Here's a video of trying to start. I think I might need to find the throttle on the engine and see if I can rev it a bit when it starts - there is a bit of string attached to something that looks like it might be a throttle lever but it is very loose so can't see it doing much.

 

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7 minutes ago, Tigermoth said:

Thanks Steve and Fish - great info. I will see if I can remove the fuel tank as it is just below the companionway door and give it a good clean out.

Here's a video of trying to start. I think I might need to find the throttle on the engine and see if I can rev it a bit when it starts - there is a bit of string attached to something that looks like it might be a throttle lever but it is very loose so can't see it doing much.

 

Good video. The problem you have is nothing to do with the pipes or oil leaks. It sounds like it is starved of fuel, i.e. diesel bug.

You don't need to remove your fuel tank (yet).

First step, confirm the suspected problem. Look at your fuel filters. Especially the regular paper cartridge one closest to the engine. It should be mounted on the engine and close to the fuel pump. If there is anything that is not diesel, that will be your problem. Bug looks like a snot like fibrous thing. If I'd just bought a boat, I'd change the filters regardless, but maybe not if you are thinking about ditching said engine.

If there is snotty sh*t in your filters, then you need to get a clean source of fuel. This includes changing all of your filters, and either taking your fuel tank out and cleaning it, or, I would recommend just getting a simple small can (or even a bottle) with some diesel in it, and running the engine off it to confirm the problem. You just take the pick up and return lines off your fuel tank and shove them in said can or bottle (note only for testing, don't go sailing like this). A 5 l fuel can, or even an old milk bottle would do for testing.

Once you have confirmed the problem and solution (clean fuel) then I would invest the time in taking the fuel tank out and cleaning it.

Supplementary question?

Are you pre-heating the glo-plug? Please excuse me if I'm being too simplistic. You need to pre-heat a diesel engine before starting. Normally this is turning the ignition key the opposite way for 40-60seconds before starting it. There may also be a button to push or some other variation. It heats up the glo-plug in the cylinder which means the engine will fire and start cold. The second thing to check, if you are pre-heating, is that the glo plug is working. This is beyond my area of knowledge, and will involve a multi-meter. I'm sure IT could explain it. Basically check for current over the glo plug wires.

Even my new Beta 35 needs pre-heating. They said it wouldn't, but diesels start rough if you don't pre-heat them, if they start at all. I'm still suspecting a fuel issue, but as the boat is new to you, thought I'd ask about the pre-heating.

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Just as a comment on pre-heat, my Volvo engine doesn't have preheat/glow plugs, but does have a starting procedure involving pulling and releasing the fuel cut-off handle prior to cranking to engage an extra starting fuel switch. It's difficult to start without that, first pop otherwise. Point being, start procedures for different engines may not being obvious, but are important!

I've found Nigel Calder's book good for thinking about things in a logical way, starting with "Engine Won't Crank" and what to run through, then "Engine Won't Start" and what to run through.

Sitting in the middle of the harbour with an engine that wouldn't crank I was glad to have a logical flow in my mind to run through.

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Thanks both - great stuff! I did push what I thought might be a glow plug switch before starting but it didn't seem to do anything. I will check the glow-plug with a multi-meter. I will try a clean source of fuel as well. I think this must be the glow plug and the big red switch - the white push button starts the engine.

IMG_4609.thumb.jpeg.bbeba5b19912813ebe6d53628c3ae59f.jpegIMG_4593.thumb.jpeg.fa84720b36154e91b48b2eb1a13f668a.jpeg

 

Start procedure from the manual is:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1621180/Petter-Ab1w.html?page=20#manual

I can't really follow these instruction with the panel/start button that I have though...

STARTER SWITCH OPERATION Fig. 4

(i) Electric starting
(i) Make sure that the decompressor lever is disengaged.
(ii) With the starter switch key in position (A) the circuit is 'off'. (iii) Turn the key clockwise to position (B). The circuit Is now "on" (iv) To operate the starter motor turn the key past position (B) to

position (C). When the engine fires release the key immediately The key is spring-loaded and will return to position (B) Leave the key in this position while the engine is running Do not operate the starter motor for more than 20 seconds at a time.

(v) If when the engine is running there is no charge current the red warning light will light up.

15. Cold starting (Fig. 3)
(a)AB1W.Attemperaturesbelow13°C(55°F)andif theengineiscold.it

is essential to prime the engine for hand starting, and advisable if battery power is low when electric starting.
Proceed as follows:

(i) Remove the priming plunger (P).
(ii) Fill the priming chamber with engine oil - NOT fuel.
(iii) Replace the priming plunger and press down.
(iv) It is advisable to keep a quantity of lubricating oil in a suitable

container for this purpose. (v) Start in the normal manner.

(b) Should the engine fire and then stop, prime again and release the overload stop lever (E) before attempting to start.

(c) AB1W and AC1W. At temperatures below 0°C (32°F) and if the engine is cold. prime the engine twice.

(d) If under cold conditions the engine does not run up to its rated speed after starting, operate the priming plunger again while the engine is running.

(e) To minimise cold starting difficulties, it is a wise policy to keep the engine under cover when not in use and to ensure that an SAE 10W viscosity engine oil is used (see Approved Lubricants).

(f) Below -4°C (25°P) rope starting is not recommen ded. (g)Below-9°C(16°F)consult FettersLtdortheiragentsforstarting

instructions.

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8 minutes ago, Tigermoth said:

Thanks both - great stuff! I did push what I thought might be a glow plug switch before starting but it didn't seem to do anything. I will check the glow-plug with a multi-meter. I will try a clean source of fuel as well. I think this must be the glow plug and the big red switch - the white push button starts the engine.

IMG_4609.thumb.jpeg.bbeba5b19912813ebe6d53628c3ae59f.jpegIMG_4593.thumb.jpeg.fa84720b36154e91b48b2eb1a13f668a.jpeg

 

Start procedure from the manual is:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1621180/Petter-Ab1w.html?page=20#manual

I can't really follow these instruction with the panel/start button that I have though...

STARTER SWITCH OPERATION Fig. 4

(i) Electric starting
(i) Make sure that the decompressor lever is disengaged.
(ii) With the starter switch key in position (A) the circuit is 'off'. (iii) Turn the key clockwise to position (B). The circuit Is now "on" (iv) To operate the starter motor turn the key past position (B) to

position (C). When the engine fires release the key immediately The key is spring-loaded and will return to position (B) Leave the key in this position while the engine is running Do not operate the starter motor for more than 20 seconds at a time.

(v) If when the engine is running there is no charge current the red warning light will light up.

15. Cold starting (Fig. 3)
(a)AB1W.Attemperaturesbelow13°C(55°F)andif theengineiscold.it

is essential to prime the engine for hand starting, and advisable if battery power is low when electric starting.
Proceed as follows:

(i) Remove the priming plunger (P).
(ii) Fill the priming chamber with engine oil - NOT fuel.
(iii) Replace the priming plunger and press down.
(iv) It is advisable to keep a quantity of lubricating oil in a suitable

container for this purpose. (v) Start in the normal manner.

(b) Should the engine fire and then stop, prime again and release the overload stop lever (E) before attempting to start.

(c) AB1W and AC1W. At temperatures below 0°C (32°F) and if the engine is cold. prime the engine twice.

(d) If under cold conditions the engine does not run up to its rated speed after starting, operate the priming plunger again while the engine is running.

(e) To minimise cold starting difficulties, it is a wise policy to keep the engine under cover when not in use and to ensure that an SAE 10W viscosity engine oil is used (see Approved Lubricants).

(f) Below -4°C (25°P) rope starting is not recommen ded. (g)Below-9°C(16°F)consult FettersLtdortheiragentsforstarting

instructions.

Any chance of a close up photo of the glass bowl fuel filter? (only if you are on the boat), and any other filters / fuel pump as you follow the fuel line along to the engine and injector pump?

I am too young to be familiar with engines that have decompression levels and priming plungers (others around here should be able to help) - but the translation of that user manual is that you need to know exactly how to start this engine, including the appropriate foreplay, chocolate, red roses, some sweet talking, and a little tickle under the sump. All I know is that single cylinders are temperamental to start. it is possible you are doing one minor little step wrong, and it is making it appear the engine is ready to be thrown out, when, infact, if you learn you need to stand on one foot and touch your nose to start it, it will run reliably for ever (provided you have clean fuel).

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21 hours ago, syohana said:

Another thought for the purpose of that hose. If it wasn't clipped up in the top corner of the coachroof then I'd say it was an emergency bilge pump. Close the seacock and open the valve on the end of the pipe, then the engine will pump water out of anywhere you put the end of that hose. I still think anti siphon based on where it goes though.

I think the hose was put there to run fresh water through the cooling system via a hose from the dock.

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Thanks folks, just had a bit of a go at it but not much time... The filter bowl was full of gunk but too tricky to remove today - will give it a clean out. I tried directly connecting the fuel lines to a plastic jerry can of diesel and it did seem to start a bit easier but then faded again after a few bangs. However, I suspect there is gunk elsewhere in the fuel system given there is no filter element and the filter bowl is full of gunk. 

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