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Cruising sails - the perfect sail cloth


Grinna

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Here's what I was looking for:

 

maybe 6-10% faster and 3-4 deg higher.

 

I was in Whangarei today and went for a wander around the Basin

 

1) Not one boat had an adjustable backstay! I humbly suggest they would all benefit more from one of these than switching to laminated sails

2) I took some photos and when my wife gets back from Grandmas house I'll post them. There were dodgers/biminis/fullcockpit enclosures/mast steps, humungous great structures full of crap at the back end/pot plants/bunches of flowers/ginormous dinghies and outboards hanging out the back.

 

 

I suggest none of these boats would notice the difference between good and bad sails, most of them are already sailing pathetically below what the designer intended anyway. They probably motor way more than any self respecting sailboat should (I figured this out from the 12 jerry jugs lashed to the lifelines - another pet hate of mine)

 

 

That price difference Booboo is way less than I was expecting. I could be tempted by that, but 90% of the boats I saw today wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

 

 

 

3) Bloody hell, the boats just keep getting bigger, what's wrong with these people?

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The problem with cruisers are most are tight arses or just don't have coin. So buy cheap and after a couple years they are rooted. More time passes as they cruise looking at rooted sails and in many cases I doubt some would know the differance between rooted and OK. Then one day mid Atlantic, in the probably very heavy loaded boat, they get a sneaker storm pop up and they try to out manoeuvre it which is going OK so..........................RIPPPPPPPPPPPPP... mainsail blown to bits, sh*t. A few hours later.. RIPPPPPPPP... headsails gone. The full force of the storm arrives, they get rolled over and die.

 

Buy good to start with delay your death is my theory.

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I was as surprised with the difference in price between the cheap and the expensive dacron.

The labour costs are going to be comparable, so the difference in material is huge.

There is a large trap for the unwary when comparing quotes between suppliers in that alone.

If the cheap stuff won't even sit flat on the cutting table imagine what it is going to look like after it's first trip across Cook Strait.

When I got my yacht even the outhaul wasn't adjustable, let alone having a vang or Cunningham fitted.

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Maybe same expert can give a percentage difference peformance wise for said boat after say 5 years, upwind and down.

 

I'm no expert but have very recent price experience. I think my cruising laminates cost me approx 20-25% more than the dacron option, so significant yes, but not a show-stopper. For a new main and headsail for my 35ft I had to spend a bit over $11,000 I think. In other words the laminates were not twice the price.

 

And so wheels' comment about spending $50k on a sail because it's a laminate is rubbish in the context of a cruiser in the 35-40ft range.

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Sorry, just noticed that BOOBOO had already answered the price question for a 35 ft performance cruiser - he might well have used my price quotes as his example and he supports my recollection that I paid ~$11k for a set of new North laminates. And very pleased with them I am too. :D

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20-25% more on the initial price, but you also need to consider that the dacron will last say 25% longer.

 

Let's say for Ac's example 11k over 6years or $1,833 pa.

vs say 8.5k over 10 years or $850 pa

 

Dacron maybe half the price.

 

Now if we accept that 90% of cruisers don't have the hardware to get that performance difference even if it is there (fixed outhauls, no cunningham,no backstay adjustment, furling headsails,baggywrinkle, mast steps, 3 tons overweight) then add in that they are on a fixed or even zero income, the balance swings away from laminates.

 

As Booboo said - different strokes for different folks.

 

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is I agree with those who want decent performance, but for the

bulk of the offshore fleet they can get bigger gains at less cost elsewhere.

 

The same could be said of many racers, how often do you see a boat with $$$$$$$ spent on flashy sails cross the start line 45 secs after the gun?

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The same could be said of many racers, how often do you see a boat with $$$$$$$ spent on flashy sails cross the start line 45 secs after the gun?

Can't be talking about me as my sails are good but hardly flash. The late bit... well you have me nailed on that one, bugger it.

 

And the ones who spend piles of coin on flash gear but feck up at least 2 tacks a race or just aim the boat the wrong way.

 

I see your point Squid and you are probably quite right. Many cruisers would get better gains by tidying up some of the shambles they already have 1st rather than swapping sails.

 

I think longevity even if it meant a little in wobbly shape after a while would be my target. Big wobbly shape movements would piss me off pretty quick though. Depends a bit on the boat I suppose. The better performance the boat had or could have, the better I'd want the sails.

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Squid, true, but for me as and when I go cruising I'll budget to replace my sails every 4-5 years rather than every 10-15 or longer. I'll just regard it as an essential cost of being out there. If budget is tight then something else will have to give. Not rum though. :D

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3) Bloody hell, the boats just keep getting bigger, what's wrong with these people?

 

Think you hit the nail on the head with the jerry jug bit, that along with the 1000litres of onboard fuel pretty much sums up the windward ability ot these wheelless Gitano wagons

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A one knot speed difference can make a huge impact even on a shortish coastal cruise like coming back from the Barrier. I imposed the 5 knot rule coming home yesterday, any boat speed less than that and I put the engine on. I left at 5.30am and wanted to be back at the marina, packed up and home for tea. 4k or 5, that's a 20% difference - over 2 hours on a trip from Barrier.

 

With my old granny's knickers that meant a lot of motoring yesterday. But as BooBoo said in the other thread, it's upwind in heavy wind that the difference is greatest. The SE got up to 15-20k for a brief period yesterday and I had to pull in the jib and motor sail. I pulled the backstay in, cranked down on the cunningham and vang, put the traveller down but the autohelm still couldn't cope with the weather helm. Even a reef in the main has little effect with crappy old sails. Downwind is no problem - a couple of days before she was going along in 35 knots at hull speed on a broad reach under a well rolled headsail.

 

So really, with old sails what I own is a motor sailer, without the space. New sails are a bit beyond my budget at the moment so I'll just have to be happy with that for a while. It would have been nice to do a bit more sailing and less motoring yesterday but one does what one can afford.

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Thinking of extraneous crap on boats, I think that a Bimini or some kind of sunshade is now pretty much essential kit on a boat in Australasia or the tropics. Yet another person I know has just had a melanoma cut out.

 

And having done coastal sailing without a dodger, I can't imagine owning a cruising boat without one.

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Bimini and dodger were the first two things I put on AC when I bought her 5 yrs ago. She's got a a big, sociable cockpit and I often get friends over from their boats on a summer's day to enjoy a drink in the shade. A no brainer.

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SAILCLOTH

 

It really just comes down to what is perfect for you and how long your budget demands you get from them. At 45' and above I would tend to think you would get better bang for your buck from a cruising laminate than a Dacron if you would like to have decent upwind performance over a fairly long period.

 

But if you go a little heavier than normal you get about the same performance out of a good Dacron and like most things there are the good the Bad and the plain Ugly.

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I think the real disadvantage of cross cut dacron sails is that all of those seams are under constant strain, especially those ones just down from the head and up from the clew. Just waiting to fail. A radial cut sail, whatever it is made out of, just makes so much more sense for longevity IMHO.

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