Farrari 4 Posted December 8, 2010 Share Posted December 8, 2010 As suggested by Brucey. I'm keen to understand what works, what doesn't and any experiences people have had. Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 3 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 There was a bloody good thread on this but quite a while back - maybe two years - and I have had no luck with the search function today. I remember Wal had quite a bit to contribute, also I think there was someone who had only just avoided a brick on a 1050 when their emergency steering didn't work as intended. One comment that stuck in my mind was that anything bigger than a sheet of A4 paper on the end of a kite pole was too much to handle. Maybe Rigger might be able to dig it up? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 We sell the Para Tech Delta Drogues as compliant emergency steering / storm gear. I have done 200+ miles with a kite pole and bunk board and do not recommend it. We were lucky there were 4 fit bodies on board. Over 30kn and we were doing circles, and our only sail was a storm jib shrunk with the clew down to the deck. Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 here you go +++++++++++++++++++ ================================ wal PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:59 am Post subject: Alternate steering systems - stern hung rudders Reply with quote Anybody got a cleverdicky plan on spare rudder systems for stern hung blades? The only one I've ever used was on "Contour of Cuthill" - we broke one or two on her but the spare system was damn unwieldy. For Cat 3 Ta _________________ Wal' ================================ blackfun PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: Reply with quote I rescued a father and son on xmas day with their new laser a few years back. Pouring with rain, blowing 25kts and they had never been sailing before - didnt pin the rudder, lost it when they flipped. I had a raging flu but all the onlookers from Kohimarama had blue rinses and canes so had no other option. Swam 500m to get to them at which point they let go of the laser and swam to shore. Managed to sail it back to St Heliers by hanging off the back lying in the cockpit and using my legs for a rudder. Got home, had a shower and into bed - watched 2 firemen interveiwed on TV3 news about how they rescued the father and son? Go figure. Glad crew.org is a credible source of news. Safety inspector probably wont go for that idea though. ================================ Rhys PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Correct Blackfun - they suggest you use buckets instead of your legs! I asked just this question during our last Cat 3 inspection and the recommendation was to tie a rope to a bucket and fire it overboard. Fix the other end of the rope to the port stanchion to turn to port and starboard stanchion to turn the other way. I have my doubts as to the effectiveness of this in the sort of conditions I'd expect to loose a rudder, but we got our certificate. Another suggestion was to organise a method of bolting washboards/cupboard doors/anything flat to your spinnaker pole and then fixing the pole to the stern with rope and using it dragon boat style. Again, I’m sure this would work in 5 knots but in 35knots? I’d be interested to see what others come up with. ================================ Jono PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: Reply with quote For your boat Wal I'd buy a couple of Ronstan gudgeons, a bit of 5/8 ply and some old alloy tube - a broken laser boom springs to mind. Throw some double bias at the ply, ensure you have pins with a surclip for locking and you are good to go. You'll even finish. ps Put the gudgeons on on the port side. That way it will be on the low side as you try to get back to Auckland. ================================ Tangent PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quote In our Ocean Yachtmaster Course, they advocated tying your spinnaker pole down across the stern of the boat with something (a bucket from memory) dragging in the water off the end - the length of the pole increases turning leverage. Can't quite remember the full details. I think you attached the bucket to the middle of a long sheet and hauled it either side to steer the direction you needed. Never tried it though. Didn't Prawn Broker use a bucket system successfully during a RNI some years back? ================================ grant PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: Reply with quote thats quite a bucket if you are going to drag it through the water at 5+ knots. Bet it doesn't have a plastic handle or come from the warehouse... woud a small drogue or the like be a better bet? ================================ Zen PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote PB used a drogue on a bridle. 2005 RNI. ================================ Fusion PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Best I have seen for a simple emergency rudder is a bucket or drogue. Tied mid ships with loop 1/2 or 1/3 the length of the spinnaker pole. clip the pole in the loop but all the load is on the stern not the pole so you can use the pole to steer like a tiller. Easy to pre make if you do not want to use a Pole tie a bridle to the loop and run the to winches to trim and turn. ================================ MrWolf PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quote If you can steer your outboard you can count that as an emergency rudder. ================================ dana-tenacity PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Seriously guys, what kind of buckets are you using? ================================ PaulR PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: Reply with quote dana-tenacity wrote: Seriously guys, what kind of buckets are you using? DT: You asked for it . . . I use a RED bucket to go to PORT and a GREEN bucket to go to STARBOARD Simple really!! ================================ curly12 PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: Reply with quote dana-tenacity wrote: Seriously guys, what kind of buckets are you using? We had to get Plasterers buckets to get kept the MSA happy. They are heavy as hell with a strong wire handle and not cheap either( about $160 ). When we asked why ,we were told to try dropping one of the side with a rope attaced to the handle. That certainly stretch's the arms!!! ================================ Rocket PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote I'd lose the bucket and use a drogue or a length of chain - a coil of rope anything that sinks with a bit of mass. Then control it with a rope from each qtr - just like they teach you at the Safety at Sea course. Needs to be strong - so I would have doubts about a bucket ================================ fng PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quote starlite express has lost several rudders , they used there 20ltr water containers as drouges off each aft mooring cleat . apparently you can adjust the lengths to get the boat to sail quite succesfuly. I got a cat3 cert buy having rope tide around my water containers and saying I would do the above should it happen ================================ Knot Me PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote MrWolf wrote: If you can steer your outboard you can count that as an emergency rudder. I like that one especially as I have one tucked nicely into my floor and I'm about to have to show the Inspector. Cool and a tad pissed I hadn't thought of it before. Thanks Wolf. Oh Oh, cunning plan. Make shroad sort of thing that goes over bottom of leg to increase area a bit. If all goes bad, take off prop, put on shroad and sail home with no noise, nice. ================================ John B PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Wal, a mate of mine bought Contour last christmas. I've spent quite a bit of time cruising in company( the coast) and aboard since. ================================ wal PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: Reply with quote John B wrote: Wal, a mate of mine bought Contour last christmas. I've spent quite a bit of time cruising in company( the coast) and aboard since. I did my first long race - '78? Gisborne Race on it. Started the '79? Noumea Race from Whangarei but got about 3 miles off Bream Head and......you guessed it, the rudder broke. I went skiing in the South island instead. Found out much later that Chris Sayer grew up on her. That's a point - what's Chris up to now? But I digress Thanks for suggestions. Don't have spin pole and not keen to bolt spare gudgeons on the back - bit fugly? Good idea but. Motor is saildrive. Have some of the finest minds from Kerikeri on to it - but they ARE boatbuilders Laughing ================================ Andrew Riddell PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Try http://www.pacificcup.org/racetips/rudder.html ================================ W.T PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:26 am Post subject: Reply with quote Last i heard Chris was in Canada or France with his wife and kids. ================================ titop PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:04 am Post subject: Reply with quote yes I did lose a few thing on elliott 10.5 keel not much to do Laughing luckily not completely just test a banging one v2 s etc. and rudder a quarter of a mile upwind from a reef with 10 ft waves family cruising in 18knots of wind. i was happy to have the compulsory ubolts and the piece of wood with the holes ready. they were about 50meters left from the reef when i manage to steer again. After 20 minutes going foward making half turn we broke the piece of wood wich was too small on the rudder wich was floating i could not believe it and could not grab it either. we manage o get out of the way of the reef and make a new board stronger with the front piece of wood of the dinghy. We then did the last ten miles with number 4 in front close reaching as engine mae the boat turn to much. We stay few day then did the fifty miles back from pine island to noumea 25 knots of wind with an elliott 5.9 rudder fitted at the back. for safety the pole with ubolt and piece of wood at least 20mm thick with holes to fit ubolt work allright. but you only need in the water size like a5 paper. and something to attach the pole onthe boat rope on balcony oar fitting then you put a pump handle in the pole fitting to hold it as it tend to turn. t works and save boat you can send ropes both sides to help then you can go at seven knots and arrive at the bar on time Wink ================================ gnasherdog PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: Reply with quote i'm definitely a bucket fan, the point about strength is dont use red shed buckets, there are superior versions around, and after you have lost a rudder your speed will not be great as you do consecutive 360's, rig up twin buckets and sheet them to your primary winches, the best system of all! ================================ Fossil PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Nearly all those suggestions will work, but the two bucket idea is going to take you a long time to get any where. Kite pole with a sheet attached each end leading to P & S winches and a length of chain shackled to the middle to sink it a bit works, still pretty slow but you will get there. I followed Medicine Man back to Westhaven from just south of Flat Rock steering with plywood U-bolted to the kite pole. They trailed it behind like an oar. They did a few (Quite a few) 360s but it was fresh SW and they did not lower away till off Devonport. So I think it is probably the best option for a smallish boat. (12m and under) I would not go to the bother of gudgeons and a spare rudder like some TransPac boats!!!!! ================================ Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Doesn't the General Lee have gudgeons and full emergency rudder and tiller? Love to see that set up. Losing the rudder seems to be one of the more common mishaps at sea and has led to a few abandonments.. A few recent ones in the Atlantic as well.. Link to post Share on other sites
Farrari 4 Posted December 9, 2010 Author Share Posted December 9, 2010 OK, sounds like their are a number of options for emergency steerage. I'm more interested in what works the best vs. what the theoretical options are just to pass cat 2 or 3. I've got four reasonably sturdy buckets that might be OK in 15 knots or so but anything higher and I wouldn't trust them. I might go out and try using the spinnaker pole as a bridle concept with my drogue and see how it goes. This might be a silly question, but can you practically sail upwind with a temporary arrangement like this or are you restricted to off wind only? Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Stanchions are GRP ex. C-Spar/Southern Spars and the pushpit/pulpits are s/s finished black to match the GRP stanchions. The frame in the centre of the transom is because the distance between pushpits exceeds the maximum 2.1m spacing for lifelines and becomes a support bracket for the satcom dome, GPS etc. The twin legged frame rather than s simgle stanchion is to allow an emergency tiller to pivot between them - note the sockets for emerency gudgeons and rudder in transom. Brett, if you are reading this, do you have any photos of the emergency rudder/tiller set up for the General? Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 More from Brett on the General Lee.. Yes the boat carries an emergency rudder - all discussions of floorboards and cupboards attached to spinnaker poles etc. are just rubbish! Either a proper rudder or a bucket on a rope off each quarter. So proper rudder, gudgeons and a tiller. Wired also is set up like this for offshore. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 from my experience, sweet f**k all Link to post Share on other sites
Farrari 4 Posted December 9, 2010 Author Share Posted December 9, 2010 J.H I'm kinda hoping that is not the case for all yachts in all situations. Some of the stories I am hearing would seem to indicate otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 yeah sorry i should rephrase that, sweet f**k all.... slogging into 30kts and 5m waves. Link to post Share on other sites
Farrari 4 Posted December 9, 2010 Author Share Posted December 9, 2010 Yep, I can imagine that not working so well. It would be hard going even with a fully functional rudder let alone one jammed hard one way. Link to post Share on other sites
Murky 3 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Rigger, you are an absolute champion. I see it was a piece of A5 paper too rather than A4. Yet again I find the the reality is half the size my memory said it was. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Yet again I find the the reality is half the size my memory said it was. You quoting your wife there Mr Murky?? Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Yet again I find the the reality is half the size my memory said it was. You quoting your wife there Mr Murky?? Yeah, left himself wide open didn't he! Someone had to say it.. Link to post Share on other sites
TimB 7 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 For general information if you want to sail Cat 2 here in WA (that's Western Australia where General Lee now lives) you have to have a proven workable alternative rudder set up. So all the offshore racing boys have extra gudgeons on the transom, a removeable rudder box, blade and tiller stowed away. Some inspectors insist on seeing it working. They are generally pretty agricultural versions of a trailer sailer set up using a dagger balde style rudder. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 For general information if you want to sail Cat 2 here in WA (that's Western Australia where General Lee now lives) you have to have a proven workable alternative rudder set up. So all the offshore racing boys have extra gudgeons on the transom, a removeable rudder box, blade and tiller stowed away. Some inspectors insist on seeing it working. They are generally pretty agricultural versions of a trailer sailer set up using a dagger balde style rudder. Cheers Thanks Tim. Seems like a smart idea. Do they actually get tried out? I imagine that you would have to centre the main rudder and have the sails much reduced and well balanced to get it to work yes?? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 I wonder if you could beef up the boarding ladder mounts to take the top of the rudder box and then one permanent heavy duty pintle down near the water. Drop a Jollyboat centreboard in, bit of a tiller.?? Still thinking. Link to post Share on other sites
TimB 7 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 smithy09 said Yeah they are supposed to hence the inspectors do insist on seeing it demonstrated. One boat I sailed on, Jaffa, had the cables break on the main steering in 30kns of wind and used the jury rig for a while (until the ham fisted helmsman broke the tiller, a 2in dia Ally pipe). Fortunately the owner was able to get under the cockpit and fix the main steering. Definitely reduced sail and centre the main rudder (if it is still there). It would really cause some grief if the main rudder was jammed over. It is limp home mode (cautiously) not carry on at 20kn with the kite up stuff. As an aside Jaffa has a cool jibing steering wheel, the "post" is mounted on a pivot so the wheel can be moved laterally across the boat when you tack or jibe. Timb Link to post Share on other sites
smithy09 50 Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Yeah they are supposed to hence the inspectors do insist on seeing it demonstrated. One boat I sailed on, Jaffa, had the cables break on the main steering in 30kns of wind and used the jury rig for a while (until the ham fisted helmsman broke the tiller, a 2in dia Ally pipe). Fortunately the owner was able to get under the cockpit and fix the main steering. Definitely reduced sail and centre the main rudder (if it is still there). It would really cause some grief if the main rudder was jammed over. It is limp home mode (cautiously) not carry on at 20kn with the kite up stuff. As an aside Jaffa has a cool jibing steering wheel, the "post" is mounted on a pivot so the wheel can be moved laterally across the boat when you tack or jibe. Timb That's pretty much what I thought. Good to hear though. What's the diference between a gybing steering wheel and a tacking steering wheel? Does the gybing one crash over real fast?? Link to post Share on other sites
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