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We are North Americans with a Canadian boat hauled in a New Zealand Yard being worked on indoors since 9/15/2021. Some cracks developed on the interior recently and we feel the yard could be partially responsible.

Is it appropriate to ask advice on this forum as to how to handle this in New Zealand. Or is it just airing grievances to elaborate the situation, by asking advice about how to handle this?

I'd prefer not to be bringing this up at all, maybe a moderator could suggest if it's appropriate?

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from your very brief post, it looks like a case of identifying cause and liability - what is causing the cracking, is the cracking occurring because of how the yard has handled the yacht and managed the job, and then is it reasonable for the yard to have foreseen the damage.  You should review any formal contract you have with them so you know who is responsible for insurance and any specific exclusion of risk.

If you haven't already you should discuss it with the yard.  Bear in mind the science adage - correlation is not proof of causation. 

From my pov, as long as you are asking for advice and not making any specific statements of fact about damage and liability its a legitimate question.

 

 

 

 

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It is totally appropriate to ask for advice.

You're not airing any grievances, (yet), those might become inappropriate especially if you're grievances are not based on facts and start slandering the boat yard. But you're a very long way from that with your current post. 

Ps: I am not a moderator

That said, 

I would have a conversation with the yard first about your concerns.  Get there view. You've obviously already drawn an opinion so it would be good to get their view of it. 

Then you might come back to us with your view and theirs and some people here might be able to throw more views in the pot. 

When starting down these paths it's often always good to get things in writing, but that can put people on the defensive from the get go.

A little known secret, is that covertly recording conversations in NZ is perfectly legal so long as the person doing the recording is a participant in the conversation. There is no legal requirement to inform the other participants.  Nb: a judge or disputes tribunal doesn't have to accept evidence obtained in this way... 

I am not suggesting that this should be your starting position, just making you aware of it.

 

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41 minutes ago, 2flit said:

Still waiting to hear from a moderator...

or is https://crew.org.nz/forum/index.php?/profile/24101-aardvarkash10/ a moderator on this forum?

 

yup.

Steer clear of politics, religion and unfounded statements of fact about other people and businesses.

You are ok and on track so far - your concerns have been worded as possibles and maybes.  If you want to start discussing specific detail you are best advised to go to a private message.

Cheers on behalf of the moderators.

 

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1 hour ago, CarpeDiem said:

It is totally appropriate to ask for advice.

You're not airing any grievances, (yet), those might become inappropriate especially if you're grievances are not based on facts and start slandering the boat yard. But you're a very long way from that with your current post. 

Ps: I am not a moderator

That said, 

I would have a conversation with the yard first about your concerns.  Get there view. You've obviously already drawn an opinion so it would be good to get their view of it. 

Then you might come back to us with your view and theirs and some people here might be able to throw more views in the pot. 

When starting down these paths it's often always good to get things in writing, but that can put people on the defensive from the get go.

A little known secret, is that covertly recording conversations in NZ is perfectly legal so long as the person doing the recording is a participant in the conversation. There is no legal requirement to inform the other participants.  Nb: a judge or disputes tribunal doesn't have to accept evidence obtained in this way... 

I am not suggesting that this should be your starting position, just making you aware of it.

 

We did all of the above  and also brought a licensed surveyor in to review the cracks. The yard does not concur with us. The relationship is still very good. 

Here are four pictures of the cracks (two before grinding and two after grinding) and then three pictures showing the interior  work and quality prior. 

I will try to post a highly annotated version of the history. This could get complicated and I am biased as the owner. What I am after is unvarnished impressions and advice in a situation where the yard has disagreed. The history will come next in a separate post following this. It will take me some time to condense to a 'forum worthy' brevity. Expect over an hour.

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Main Cabin.jpg

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In a dispute like this its often a good approach for both parties to agree on an impartial, independent, qualified assessment - in this case a surveyor or engineer who can assess the problem and attribute cause to it.

Once both parties agree on the assessor, both are bound by that person's assessment.

Typically, both parties contribute to the cost of the assessor.

This has significant advantages for everyone - a single assessment with a finite resolution means less risk of ongoing increasingly acrimonious litigation.  

Again, any formal contract you have with the yard will likely have a dispute resolution process in it.  That contract is your first point of reference.

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General History Synopsys

 

April 2001 Farrier F36/36 build (Cloudy Mountain Woodworks Bellingham, USA)

Sept 2015 New all-carbon daggerboard fitted

Winter 2016/17 Refit including new deck paint (indoors for 5 months)

Oct 2017 depart Vancouver BC Canada

Jan 2018 minor refit including window glazing replaced (Lexan + Dow 795). This installer seems to have had a very hard time removing the glazing but succeeded. (Note that the New Zealand Glazer says that if he installs the glazing then the next guy will literally tear the boat apart to get it out)

 Nov 2019 arrive New Zealand (via French Polynesia and Tonga)

 Sept 2021 Ordered Repaint in New Zealand, Painter informs us he should redo the decks to do a good top sides job due to over spray/technique. We agree to this

 October 2021painter informs us window silicone should be removed to do a good job, we agree to this. Fein Tool and razor knife used

Dec 2021 topside paint mostly completed no cracks discovered at this time.

Jan 2022 Yard does final clean of window surround caulk in preparation to re-silicone. Half way thru this my wife alerts worker to many cracks on starboard interior. Worker comes inside to look… says nothing and continues on to do port side window silicone clean out. Port side has very few/slight cracks now.

Jan 2Yard installs new sealant

Jan 2022 Wife reads tube of sealant used and clearly stated on tube “Must Not Be Used with Polycarbonate Glazing” We consult glazer who insist caulk should be removed, yard agrees. Employee spends three days removing the caulk he just put in. No further cracking is seen.

Feb 2022, we hire a licensed marine surveyor to excavate and review the situation with the cracks. He says he “cannot determine the cause” but also says “He can find no other reason the cracks would have occurred but by way of the silicon removal” He notes that two distinct layers of bog join at the crack and one is porific the other is very smooth. These were used to cover nuts used to thru bolt the windows for security. He determines the crack is non-structural and the fiberglass layer underneath is fully intact.

Feb 2022 Lead Yard man investigates the crack and says it is the fault of the original builder. We think this individual is very knowledgeable but also biased by his employment. He is the best boat repair man I have encountered in 45 odd years. You Kiwis are really excellent builders.

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Theres two topics here, one is technical discussion about the cause of the cracks, how serious, repairs etc and the other is the process of dispute resolution. Regarding the latter, that's reasonably straightforward on the face of it( I know it can get difficult)  ask for some relief or go to arbitration.

The technical discussion is far more interesting as we all have a degree of "window fear" we know our time is coming :) 

I personally cant offer any anecdotes but exactly where on the timeline did the cracks appear as it seems related to the removal process of the sealant

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I did a window replacement about a month ago . I was very surprised at how flexible the area around the window cut out was with the window removed . 

I am taking a guess that the scraping force applied by the worker over 3 days  to remove the incorrect sealant flexed the laminate enough to crack the bog/filler on the inside of the window surround ? 

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12 minutes ago, Ex Machina said:

I did a window replacement about a month ago . I was very surprised at how flexible the area around the window cut out was with the window removed . 

I am taking a guess that the scraping force applied by the worker over 3 days  to remove the incorrect sealant flexed the laminate enough to crack the bog/filler on the inside of the window surround ? 

The window surrounds are rather rigid and don't seem to flex easily. (we wound up removing all the windows on Thursday/Friday last week) because the sealant had loosened between the glazing and the ledger they sit in. This should not have happened either but I can see NO Way the yard could have caused this. With the windows now all removed.... the surrounds are very rigid and strong. The boat is exceptionally well built but still light and fast.

The hull is 20mm thick except around the windows where it is much thicker due to the bog hiding the thru bolted Nuts.

The cracks were first noted by my wife in January literally as the yard worker was doing further scraping as he prepared to install the incorrect caulk.  Aa he was working...He was called out on this by my wife. He then moved to the port side where there are hardly any cracks showing now... It is really hard to say that this is causation even though there was temporal correlation. This situation really is hard to sort out.

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11 hours ago, 2flit said:

The window surrounds are rather rigid and don't seem to flex easily. (we wound up removing all the windows on Thursday/Friday last week) because the sealant had loosened between the glazing and the ledger they sit in. This should not have happened either but I can see NO Way the yard could have caused this. With the windows now all removed.... the surrounds are very rigid and strong. The boat is exceptionally well built but still light and fast.

The hull is 20mm thick except around the windows where it is much thicker due to the bog hiding the thru bolted Nuts.

The cracks were first noted by my wife in January literally as the yard worker was doing further scraping as he prepared to install the incorrect caulk.  Aa he was working...He was called out on this by my wife. He then moved to the port side where there are hardly any cracks showing now... It is really hard to say that this is causation even though there was temporal correlation. This situation really is hard to sort out.

So are/were the nuts captive in the bog ? 

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IMO it is an old technique to through bolt the windows. Bolts are where the leaks start, and often crack acrylic  windows, and sometimes toughened glass. This is because of the differences in expansion/contraction of the window compared to the frame/mounting surface. Bog to cover bolt heads is not ideal, bog is often brittle and cracks when thickly applied - as it must be to cover a bolt head. It would not need to be much flex to cause this.

Modern adhesives can be really hard to remove. I've done quite a few window replacements on different types of boats. Usually I remove the sealant with a multi tool, and sharp flat blade. Sometimes there is sufficient strength in the adhesive to pull off a laminate, care is required, and repairs and painting is often required. I usually remove the old bolts, glass up the holes, and go adhesive only. 

Some window/cabin sides are thin - not ideal IMO, especially for a boat going offshore. Stiffening with bog is a poor idea, but unfortunately not that uncommon. 

If this were my boat I would remove the internal bog and add a laminate as required. A thin layer of bog is OK for fairing only. Going to need paint to make it look nice, but if re glassing the inside, an internal false window frame (made from the additional laminate) can be used to give a paint line, making paint matching easier at the edge.

Why did it happen? Maybe the original builder used a bog that was not sufficiently flexible, and the work to remove the windows/sealant caused sufficient vibration/flexing to crack it?

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1 hour ago, Island Time said:

Maybe the original builder used a bog that was not sufficiently flexible, and the work to remove the windows/sealant caused sufficient vibration/flexing to crack it?

Thats my thoughts, a bit of flexing when removing the windows especially in light of this comment

 

16 hours ago, 2flit said:

Jan 2018 minor refit including window glazing replaced (Lexan + Dow 795). This installer seems to have had a very hard time removing the glazing but succeeded. (Note that the New Zealand Glazer says that if he installs the glazing then the next guy will literally tear the boat apart to get it out)

Could have initiated the cracks by weakening the bog and the subsequent removal exacerbated it?

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1 hour ago, Island Time said:

IMO it is an old technique to through bolt the windows. Bolts are where the leaks start, and often crack acrylic  windows, and sometimes toughened glass. This is because of the differences in expansion/contraction of the window compared to the frame/mounting surface. Bog to cover bolt heads is not ideal, bog is often brittle and cracks when thickly applied - as it must be to cover a bolt head. It would not need to be much flex to cause this.

Modern adhesives can be really hard to remove. I've done quite a few window replacements on different types of boats. Usually I remove the sealant with a multi tool, and sharp flat blade. Sometimes there is sufficient strength in the adhesive to pull off a laminate, care is required, and repairs and painting is often required. I usually remove the old bolts, glass up the holes, and go adhesive only. 

Some window/cabin sides are thin - not ideal IMO, especially for a boat going offshore. Stiffening with bog is a poor idea, but unfortunately not that uncommon. 

If this were my boat I would remove the internal bog and add a laminate as required. A thin layer of bog is OK for fairing only. Going to need paint to make it look nice, but if re glassing the inside, an internal false window frame (made from the additional laminate) can be used to give a paint line, making paint matching easier at the edge.

Why did it happen? Maybe the original builder used a bog that was not sufficiently flexible, and the work to remove the windows/sealant caused sufficient vibration/flexing to crack it?

Window were already removed in Jan 2018 with no ill effects. That caulk was firmly gripping the glass and hard to remove. Yet no perimeter cracks showed up at that time.

The sealant only around the edges of the glass was removed in Oct 2021 to paint around the edges of the surround. The glass was removed this time (Feb 2022) because the seal behind the glass appeared loose in Feb 2022.

We have been advised to reuse the fasteners and will do so. Never caused cracking of the glazing before and it probably saved us the last time around. I'm not heading around the world with my polycarbonate window only secured by silicone.

We don't know why it cracked on the day the yard worker was scraping out the grove around the glass

 

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1 hour ago, Psyche said:

Thats my thoughts, a bit of flexing when removing the windows especially in light of this comment

 

Could have initiated the cracks by weakening the bog and the subsequent removal exacerbated it?

Yet there were no cracks until Feb 2022, This after a previous window removal  three more haul outs including 3 months on the hard while all sorts of deck work went on, an overland transport, sailing in 7+ meter seas 45kn gusting 80kn to weather, and all sorts of 'stresses' ... So why suddenly and just only now and everywhere and all at once?

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