Are we about to join the Americans with gummed up outboards?

[Zozza 293]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/government-says-it-will-push-ahead-with-biofuels-plan-raising-cost-of-fuel-5-10-cents-a-litre/PFPJY53PRQRQTLHZGWAJKSPAK4/

I am not trying to raise any sort of political fight, nor a fight about carbon emissions -- no doubt some poster will come along and stuff that up and this thread will be locked eventually...but what I really am concerned about is that these bio fuels mixed in with normal petrol, appear to be the single biggest cause of giving increased business to North American Outboard Repair Shops, while at the same time causing frustration to the boaty with even a brand new outboard.

As I use an outboard for my main auxiliary, and others use one for their tender quite a bit - this move slated for next year, is of major concern.

Is there anything we can do to mitigate this when / if it is mandated?  
A stabiliser would help? 'Stabil' is one brand I have heard of.
Any other ideas?

[mcp 32]

You can put water in ethanol based petrol, and then water and alcohol will then separate from the petrol base and settle.  Then all you have to do it drain it away and you have pure petrol.

[Ex Machina 365]

2 hours ago, Zozza said:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/government-says-it-will-push-ahead-with-biofuels-plan-raising-cost-of-fuel-5-10-cents-a-litre/PFPJY53PRQRQTLHZGWAJKSPAK4/

I am not trying to raise any sort of political fight, nor a fight about carbon emissions -- no doubt some poster will come along and stuff that up and this thread will be locked eventually...but what I really am concerned about is that these bio fuels mixed in with normal petrol, appear to be the single biggest cause of giving increased business to North American Outboard Repair Shops, while at the same time causing frustration to the boaty with even a brand new outboard.

As I use an outboard for my main auxiliary, and others use one for their tender quite a bit - this move slated for next year, is of major concern.

Is there anything we can do to mitigate this when / if it is mandated?  
A stabiliser would help? 'Stabil' is one brand I have heard of.
Any other ideas?

The American outboard forums are full of ways around it but I’ve never really taken any notice as I’ve been searching for other “problems” with my motors .

thanks for the heads up I will be spending a bit of time looking up the issues with ethanol and outboards 

[aardvarkash10 955]

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Busting-Ethanol-Fuel-Myths

[Black Panther 1,581]

I've read that in Europe and UK electric dinghy outboards are rapidly becoming the norm.

[Ex Machina 365]

4 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:

https://www.westmarine.com/WestAdvisor/Busting-Ethanol-Fuel-Myths

Thanks for that …not such an issue for yachties with smaller engines and amounts of fuel . Gonna be a few headaches for the tinnie crowd though with bigger engines and tanks 

[Black Panther 1,581]

I've found the worst thing you can do is not use it regularly. Old fuel - bad

[aardvarkash10 955]

3 minutes ago, Ex Machina said:

Thanks for that …not such an issue for yachties with smaller engines and amounts of fuel . Gonna be a few headaches for the tinnie crowd though with bigger engines and tanks 

I suspect the opposite.

Our tender outboard uses stuff-all fuel, a 4l tote tank lasts 6 months or more.

Most fishos I know fill two or three 20l totes every time they go out.  Granted, some of the real big stuff with fitted tanks will possibly have an issue and need to be more careful.

My takeaway from the article is treat petrol like diesel - reduce air gaps in your tanks to keep atmospheric moisture to a minimum and maintain the fuel system regularly.  Simple.

[marinheiro 352]

There are 2 issues with Ethanol based blends

1. the water/gumming issue previously mentioned, and 

2. The ethanol attacking plastic and rubber components in fuel systems that are not resistant to it.

Here's what Yamaha NZ  have to say, I imagine other manufacturers take a similar approach

All 2008 and later outboard models have been designed with fuel system components that are tolerant to fresh fuel containing ethanol up to 10% (E10). Outboard fuel systems can still be affected by: water, dissolved gum, varnish, corrosion particles, and dissolved resins that E10 fuel has cleaned from the distribution system and your boat’s fuel tanks.

 

[wheels 543]

So when they are talking Bio-fuel, they are actually referring to the addition of Ethanol?? Because there are many forms of Bio-Fuels.

The largest producer of ethanol in NZ is Fonterra. At the moment, the only Alcohol added to Petrol is Ethanol. NZ does not use Methanol in it's Petrol. That is not to say that someone might use it at some stage.
Ethanol itself does not gum up your plugs or engine. That should only be a first use symptom, as the ethanol dissolves the gum in the Fuel system and that gum, which is non combustible and a high carbon product, will move on into the engine and adhere to plugs etc.
E10 (as a fuel avaliable from the Pump) also has a high octane rating of around 100. But this is NOT the same as Avgas 100.

I believe that our NZ manufacturered Fuel uses "Octane" to produce the required RON number. But in other places of the World, other products are sometimes used. Ethly Butane and Toluene are both common. I don't know what will be in our Fuel as an Octane additive, when the shipments start arriving from Singapore soon. The Last shipment of Crude is going through Marsden right now. Once that has been processed, that is it for Marsden.
Petrol is produced out of the Refinery at a RON rating somewhere in the mid 80's I think. Then Octane is added at rates to produce the 91, 95, 98 RON ratings.
Avgas 100 is a completely different mix altogther and still includes Tetraethyllead. So don't go making the mistake that a few have of putting Avgas in your Car if it has a Catylitic Converter. Lead is instant death to them.

Ethanol increases Octane ONLY because Ethanol has a very low calorific value and thus reduces the speed of the "flame wave front" at ignition. It's like the difference between Black powder and the newer high energy nitro based stuff used in modern ammunition.
Octane and Ethylbutane and the others used as RON boosters are different. They work the same by slowing the Flame wave front, but still have a high energy content. If you think of Petrol and Diesel, Diesel is made of a set of very long chain molecules and Petrol is a set of much shorter molecules. Octanes are longer chains than the other petroleum chemicals that make up Petrol. Diesel has a much higher energy output per litre of fuel than a litre of Petrol does.
But it is much harder to ignite.

OK, so if you have stayed with me so far, the result is that E10, even though it is 100Octane, has a much lower power to litre of fuel ratio than 100Avgas does. In fact E10 has less calories per litre than 95. About 10% less. The result is that burning E10 actually equates to no fuel saving at all and in most cases of driving, you likely end up using more fuel. It does make the engine feel smoother, but the engine needs more fuel to get the same power output. At the very best on long run drives, you might make a saving, but the extra cost in Fuel completely outweighs any saving in liters used. 
So if the only choice we have is E10 in NZ and it is 10cents more expensive per litre, it becomes even more expensive for us to run the Vehicles and Outboards etc. 

And one last Warning. DO NOT EVER put Ethanol into Diesel. Like one nieve fellow did once when I...errr I mean....he was told that Ethanol could be added to Diesel. We were going through some 1000ltrs per week of pure Ethanol and a machine I invented removed the residual Ethanol from the powder before being dumped. The Ethanol could not be resused in the process for fear of tainting the finished product. So we had huge amounts of it with no use other than cleaning. The manager was using it in his lawn mower and told me it could also be added to Diesel. So into my work Van it went. I can now say from experience, nope. No it cannot. I had to remove the fuel tank, clean out the fuel lines and pump and injectors. Thank-fully I had not wrecked the injector pump or injectors.

[waikiore 398]

Because of one of my vehicles -that I also drove in Europe which is an older V8 type thing, I have researched this quite a bit-E10 is cheaper in Europe than 98 which as Shell V power is usually E5 . So every one over their with performance vehicles uses high octane low Ethanol fuels if they can rather than Supermarket brand high Ethanol but cheaper fuels 91 or 95 . 

Here things are a bit blurry and it is hard to get hard percentages from the fuel companies on the various fuels, usually use Z 95 however it seems that BP have a low or no Ethanol 98 -bloody dear but the car likes it. You would think that they would have to publish their percentages somewhere....

[marinheiro 352]

In Brazil we had the choice of "standard" petrol which was about E20 or 100% Ethanol. All the locally manufactured cars were "flex" engines which could run on any level of Ethanol (and could also run on CNG) without a problem. Just came down to economics, to achieve equivalent $R/km the 100% ethanol needed to be less than 70% of the cost of standard. The local "rule" was when returning a rental car it was always filled with 100% Ethanol.

Then you would have some outlets get smart, diluting the standard petrol with more ethanol to about an E50 mix (known locally as "adulterado") but still sold at the full price

[harrytom 642]

Gull E10 blended fuel is not recommended for outboards as it varies to much,more than 10% often,BP 98 and mobil 98 are both ethonal based.

I use z 95 as its petrol with additives in outboard(older 2s) my v6 is designed to run on ethonal but nah,uesed it once 13lt per 100km open rd 95 9.1lt

Not sure what is in NPD 100 octane. 

[aardvarkash10 955]

19 minutes ago, harrytom said:

Not sure what is in NPD 100 octane. 

Napalm

[Black Panther 1,581]

I always buy whatever is cheapest,  never been a problem. 

[Ex Machina 365]

So I wonder if this will be done at marsden point ? Adding value to an imported product ? I did read about the possible scenarios awhile back when they announced they were ceasing refining. 
 

I think there were several things they were pursuing ….hydrogen plant , biofuel plant , solar farm etc 

[wheels 543]

11 hours ago, Black Panther said:

I always buy whatever is cheapest,  never been a problem. 

Any engine designed for low Octane fuels will run happily on higher Octane fuels. But never the other way around. You will damage it. If it is designed for higher Octanes, it usually makes it very clear at the fill point on the Vehicle.
High Octane is used in any engine that has high compression. Turbo's are the most common to come across, as more air is pushed into the chamber thus greater compression achieved. The uncommon engines are high performance engines, either modified or Super Cars.

[wheels 543]

NPD 100 is ethanol.

Most outboards do not reccomend the use of ethanol additive fuels. In fact most small motors, especially 2 strokes do not reccomend Ethanol in Petrol. In 2 strokes it breaks down the lubrication property of the Oil.