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Why are we stuck with just a couple brands in NZ?


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A mate built his in the 80s using East system,cheaper than west,same product. I purchased a real good fairing compound early 90s resimax,3m I think,gone now.

As mentioned earlier Foodstuff group or countdown there is no choice as market has diminished. How many backyard builds do you see now??

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3 hours ago, wheels said:

Most solid glass boats are not made from Epoxy. They are Vinyl Ester

Most run of the mill production boats, esp out of Europe and Sth Africa are still built from polyester resins. They might use vinyl ester against the gel coat but after that it is typically polyester. This includes most AWB's, cats (Outremers & Catana may use VE), and power boats from the same yards. Maritimo state they use VE, whilst Riviera are a bit cagey about the resins used, mentioning VE for "sealing" but not saying clearly if all laminate is VE.

VE's are roughly double the price of polyesters and not so easy to work with.

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How much of the epoxy market is finished product shipped in and how much is contract manufactured onshore?

 

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The tech in epoxies is in the hardener, I'm pretty sure that the bulk components (resins) come from a few major suppliers and are repackaged to suit.

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14 hours ago, marinheiro said:

Most run of the mill production boats, esp out of Europe and Sth Africa are still built from polyester resins. They might use vinyl ester against the gel coat but after that it is typically polyester. This includes most AWB's, cats (Outremers & Catana may use VE), and power boats from the same yards. Maritimo state they use VE, whilst Riviera are a bit cagey about the resins used, mentioning VE for "sealing" but not saying clearly if all laminate is VE.

VE's are roughly double the price of polyesters and not so easy to work with.

It is called Polyester, because that is what we were all used to. But Polyester was done away with waaaay back in the 70's. Polyester is the resin that caused Osmosis issues. That changed ruffly around 1972, although that was a slow change as stocks slowly deminished and the new Vinylester took it's place. However the name Polyester was never dropped fro use. Everyone still called it Polyester. Basically, it looked the same, smelled the same, worked the same. Except it didn't let water through it via Osmosis.
The blisters that are sometines seen on modern hulls are not the same. They come about due to the layup not being 100%. Something very hard to get right in chopped strand processes. But much easier to fix by a simple grind and fill and waterproof coat to seal it again. Osmosis was a slightly different problem and could result in a lot of damage if left unchecked. Repair was not always simple.

 

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The limited range of paint colours is a frustration, esp when you can see what is available elsewhere in the world. International 'Interdeck' offers a grand total of 4 colours!

I guess we are just a small market.

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But we do have this stuff . They seem to do very little market targeting of the marine segment . Amazing stuff really almost  a one paint does all . Bit of a backyard hack can be done with this too according my mate , you can mix west sanding/fairing powder with it and use it as high build primer too and very easy to sand .

 

https://www.resene.co.nz/archspec/products/durepox.htm

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23 minutes ago, Ex Machina said:

But we do have this stuff . They seem to do very little market targeting of the marine segment . Amazing stuff really almost  a one paint does all . Bit of a backyard hack can be done with this too according my mate , you can mix west sanding/fairing powder with it and use it as high build primer too and very easy to sand .

 

https://www.resene.co.nz/archspec/products/durepox.htm

Its an awesome product: primer, undercoat, vapour barrier, topcoat, non skid all in one and its easy to retouch. Add clear for a gloss/uv resistant finish and you're good to go. LPU's are better for exterior longevity appearance and gloss but for all general use its hard to beat. 

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Actually Wheels for a change you are way off the mark, most (90% plus) production boatbuilding is still Polyester resin. Since the seventies we have known about the failures of these laminates and consider the main two types used differently, isothalic and orthothalic resins. These are both inferior and cheaper and less  corrosion resistant than Vinylester-but much easier for the average yard to deal with. Vinylester chemically has more in common with some epoxies.

So we are left with a number of yards that care about the longevity of their product and happiness of their clients who use a Vinylester tie coat (often in tissue) behind the gelcoat forming a barrier to prevent corrosion of the main laminate by hydrolysis. .

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46 minutes ago, Nathan1000 said:

Thanks Ex Machina, does resene tint it to a range of colours - I'll take a look at that option.

 

No idea mate but I assume you would have a wide range to choose from . I have black and grey on my boat , black on the prod and grey go-faster on the bottom 

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58 minutes ago, waikiore said:

Actually Wheels for a change you are way off the mark, most (90% plus) production boatbuilding is still Polyester resin. Since the seventies we have known about the failures of these laminates and consider the main two types used differently, isothalic and orthothalic resins. These are both inferior and cheaper and less  corrosion resistant than Vinylester-but much easier for the average yard to deal with. Vinylester chemically has more in common with some epoxies.

So we are left with a number of yards that care about the longevity of their product and happiness of their clients who use a Vinylester tie coat (often in tissue) behind the gelcoat forming a barrier to prevent corrosion of the main laminate by hydrolysis. .

Mk2 Corsair launches had a VE tie coat below the water line . Very light chopstrand layer was used , smelt like cat crap and thick syrupy consistency made it hard to work with .

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2 hours ago, waikiore said:

Actually Wheels for a change you are way off the mark, most (90% plus) production boatbuilding is still Polyester resin. Since the seventies we have known about the failures of these laminates and consider the main two types used differently, isothalic and orthothalic resins. These are both inferior and cheaper and less  corrosion resistant than Vinylester-but much easier for the average yard to deal with. Vinylester chemically has more in common with some epoxies.

So we are left with a number of yards that care about the longevity of their product and happiness of their clients who use a Vinylester tie coat (often in tissue) behind the gelcoat forming a barrier to prevent corrosion of the main laminate by hydrolysis. .

the old hands reckoned the polyester resins were actually quite good up until the first oil crisis, then it appeared the mix was changed and that's when Osmosis really became a problem. So early Cav's, Corsairs etc potentially stood up better than the latter ones.

Here is an FP Cat that was only 2 yrs old that needed a major bottom job

https://www.osmosis.co.nz/gallery/sail/thetys/page_1.html

even though that was 10 yrs ago they are still using polyester resins, but make a big deal about using an Iso NPG gel coat which has been industry norm for decades

Fountaine Pajot was a pioneer in the manufacture of composite power and sail cruising catamarans. The company developed and perfected sandwich construction technology, and all catamarans in the range feature a core of PVC foam laminated under vacuum and outer skins made of a laminate of fibreglass fabrics and powder binder mats applied by hand with an isophtalic polyester resin. The core of the sandwich is satisfied under vacuum leaving cross-linking at regular intervals between the two skins to ensure proper adhesion. To guarantee the protection of their boats against hydrolysis, for hulls and decks they use only isophtalic gel-coats applied extremely evenly by spray-gun. Like every other phase in manufacture, the quality of their application is strictly controlled.

 

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5 hours ago, wheels said:

It is called Polyester, because that is what we were all used to. But Polyester was done away with waaaay back in the 70's. Polyester is the resin that caused Osmosis issues. That changed ruffly around 1972, although that was a slow change as stocks slowly deminished and the new Vinylester took it's place. However the name Polyester was never dropped fro use. Everyone still called it Polyester. Basically, it looked the same, smelled the same, worked the same. Except it didn't let water through it via Osmosis.
The blisters that are sometines seen on modern hulls are not the same. They come about due to the layup not being 100%. Something very hard to get right in chopped strand processes. But much easier to fix by a simple grind and fill and waterproof coat to seal it again. Osmosis was a slightly different problem and could result in a lot of damage if left unchecked. Repair was not always simple.

 

Polyester and Vinyl ester resins are 2 very different products, as described here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyester_resin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_ester_resin

blisters on modern hulls still have the same basic mechanism as those decades ago

https://www.boatsurveyor.net/boat-surveyor-osmosis-explained/

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OK I am guilty of making comments that were far too broad in explanation of a discussion that is quite complex.
Before I get into it, here are some usless information facts. Did you know Polyester was actually invented back in 1935. It's first use was for Radomes on Aircraft during the War.
The first FRP(fibre reinforced plastic) or also called GRP(glass reinforced plastic) boat was built in 1942.
The first GRP boat to be constructed in NZ was a small boat built by Arnold France in 1955. He continued to produce the designs making him the first NZ Fibreglass Boat Biulder, manufacturing under the name of France Craft.

       A slight side track on another piece of interesting info. Bill Hamilton of Hamilton Jet fame, had been trying without success to biuld a jet boat. Bill Hamilton approached Arnold France with his idea and Arnold suggested to Bill the best kind of Hull design he should go for and handed Bill a pamphlet of a water jet called the Hanley Water Jet. Which was basically a Centrifugal pump on it's side with the outlet pointing backwards and the intake down in the water of course. Bill basically copied that design and put it in his very first boat powered by an old Ford 10 engine. While it worked, it performed rather poorly and so Bill continued to biuld and improve his design. But at the same time, Arnold also biult a Waterjet. And it is said that Arnold actually biult the first commercially viable water jet that looked pretty much the modern day water jet. I remember it well, because s a Kid, my Uncle bought one and fitted it to a boat he built. He had that boat for decades and I grew up from a little tot to well into my mid twenties spending all my summers on that boat.

      Back on track again....It was Frank Simpson that turned the industry on it's head with the first full scale production of GRP boats under the name Fi-Glass. Fi-Glass had been established building things like Sinks etc from this new fandangled material called Fibreglass.
       From the early 60's into the 70's, the small powered trailer boat market exploded in NZ.
In 1963, there was a guy by the name of Peter Morgan, at that time a student and Auckland University Engineering dept, who carried out the first lab tests ever on composite strengths. With the information he gained, he went on to design and biuld his own Boat, a 20ft Morgan Clipper, of Ceder strip and Epoxy composite.
I had a bit to do with a bloke by the name of Ivan Ingram of Reflex boats. Reflex started in the early 70's and in 87 teamed up with John Haines to build Haines Signature Boats in CHCH. I love those boats. I believe Haines has absorbed Reflex. I caught up with Ivan probably over 10yrs ago now and he had pretty much handed over the keys to the factory at that point. I think Haines are now fully Oz built, but I stand to be corrected on that.
       Did you know that by mid 1970's, there were 30 Boat manufactureres in NZ and some 100 different Models.

There are three Basic Types of Resins. Polyester, Vinyl Ester and Epoxy. Within each of those three, there are variations as well. For example, Polyester has a backbone of Isopthalic, Orthopthalic, and Terepthalic Acid. The last one by the way, is what clear plastic bottles, like Coke Bottles, are made from. And can be spun into fibres to make Polyester yarn, which is where Polyester Ropes and materials come from.
Polyesters are the cheapest and most commonly used because they are cheap. However, Polyester also has several drawbacks. It does not adhere to anything other than itself very well. It is brittle and it has the lowest return of strenght of the three main resin groups. It is prone to Osmosis. I will discuss Osmosis later on. However, it is still used in Boat biulding, except today, most and I will repeat that "Most" boat biulders use it in conjunction with Vinyl Ester Resins. Often the first Resin laid down is Vinyl Ester to create a water proof barrier. Then the following layers and structural builds are often Polyester.
Vinyl Ester is pretty much impervious to water. It does NOT suffer from Osmosis. Yes you can get Blisters, but Osmosis is not the cause. Usually a poor layup has been the cause. Osmosis is a different beast in that the Water takes on an acidic composition and it slowly degrades and disolves the Resin.

Vinyl Ester is a totally different makeup of Resin. It is actually a combination of Epoxy, married to the Ester group to create a Resin that is kind of in between Epoxy and Polyester. As a result, it is more expensive than Polyester, cheaper than Epoxy. It performs better than Polyester in nearly all aspects, has a far greater adherence to other materials, although still does not come close to Epoxy. Both Poly and Vinyl hardens through a Catalytic reaction, using a Chlorine Peroxide catalyst, being Methyl Ethyl Ketone. Vinylester does not suffer from Osmosis. The reason for this is the way the Molecular chain closes during the Crosslinking stage. This crosslinking difference is also why Vinyl does not remain tacky in air like Polyester does. Basically the cross linking difference is what stops the reaction of water within a blister creating an acidic reaction with the ester groups. And thus Osmosis does not take place.

I won't go into Epoxy as we all know what that is.

It is true that the Polyesters of the 60's/70's are different to the formulations of today. But Polyester is still a far inferior Resin when it comes to Vinyl and Epoxy. Also, building a small Trailer type Powerboat is a lot different to building something large that is going to take on a pounding, or is large enough that it is going to be in the water full time. Simply, anyone building a large vessel, Sail or Power, that is full time in the water, still using Polyester Resin needs to seriously reconsider. Vinyl Ester is the far better way to go. Or at the very least as a water impervious barrier coat with Polyester overtop. Performance wise, Vinyl is supperior in strength, adhesion and water proofness.

A lot of work was done by one of the chemists of International Epiglass years back now, re Osmosis. It used to be a problem that brought fear to the hearts of Boat Owners. Yards were making enormous money from such repairs. It used to be recommended that the Gelcoat and first layer of glass was removed with a special planning tool and then washed and left to dry for months. Then the holes filled and a new layer of Epoxy/Glass applied.
Then someone came up with the idea that they could vacuum suck the water out by simply breaking the blister and then placing a vacuum bag over the hull and apply said vacuum for weeks till dry. Then Epoxy. Then it evolved to grind the blisters and wash and fill and Epoxy.
Then enter the International/Epiglass fellow and he turned the entire industry upside down. He found that all that was needed was to break the blister, give a wash to ensure all the holes were clean, let it dry and fill the voids with filler. Then fair and an Epoxy Barrier coat before the normal Antifoul procedure was carried out. No need to go through the expensive hard work that was once prescribed.

I can go on, but I imagine few are still with me down here at this point.






 

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Your history of Osmosis treatment is woefully full of gaps and misleading, Epiglass -and International were not involved other than saying grind out the blisters coat with Epoxy undercoat and antifoul . This advice came from England where they do not suffer anything like as bad as us and other tropical climes. This practice still continue today and does not stop Osmosis.

In NZ we led the world developing the planer and drying regimes followed by a carefully considered re lamination utilising Vinylester mixes. This system was developed by Mike Menzies in conjunction with Colin Palmer at Adhesive Technologies in the 80's. To this day it appears to be the only method that I have seen not fail.

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On 12/04/2022 at 9:29 AM, waikiore said:

Actually Wheels for a change you are way off the mark, most (90% plus) production boatbuilding is still Polyester resin. Since the seventies we have known about the failures of these laminates and consider the main two types used differently, isothalic and orthothalic resins. These are both inferior and cheaper and less  corrosion resistant than Vinylester-but much easier for the average yard to deal with. Vinylester chemically has more in common with some epoxies.

So we are left with a number of yards that care about the longevity of their product and happiness of their clients who use a Vinylester tie coat (often in tissue) behind the gelcoat forming a barrier to prevent corrosion of the main laminate by hydrolysis. .

Mostly I agree, My understanding of the primary purpose of the tissue behind the Gel coat was to prevent "print" of the fiberglass substrate through the gel coat layer, print is where in a certain light you could see the pattern of the fiberglass mat used in the layup through the outer gel coat layer, although I agree it could also provide a barrier to the somewhat porous gel coat allowing moisture to wick into the substrate over time.

I would add sometimes you do have to dig deeper for instance the epoxy versions of Hanses are only epoxy below the waterline the early ones were polyester above, not sure if they have now changed to vinylester but hopefully they have.

Early osmosis was almost exclusive to chopped strand layups with lots of air voids where trapped stryenes would eventually react with moisture allowed in by the largely permeable gel coat layer.

Latterly poor layup leaving poor resin saturation and air voids because laminators were poorly paid and trained became a more prevalent problem- the oil crisises in the 70s had boatbuilders trying to stretch more expensive resins further which led to the use of core materials we can expound ad infinitum from there because of poor core materials (ie) balsa with no proper sealing around thru hull fittings the list goes on.....my ten cents.

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Yet there are heaps of balsa cored poly boats that are still alive and kicking, Ive seen a few hulls that you could fake a moon landing on with the craters, but a bit of grinding, hosing off and bog seems to do the trick. Most of the dogs have been fixed now so its usually just a few bubbles a season.

Once upon a time osmosis was a common and newsworthy word, in the 70's and 80's everyone knew what it meant. Now just the dinosaurs like us talk about it.

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19 hours ago, waikiore said:

Your history of Osmosis treatment is woefully full of gaps and misleading, Epiglass -and International were not involved other than saying grind out the blisters coat with Epoxy undercoat and antifoul . This advice came from England where they do not suffer anything like as bad as us and other tropical climes. This practice still continue today and does not stop Osmosis.

In NZ we led the world developing the planer and drying regimes followed by a carefully considered re lamination utilising Vinylester mixes. This system was developed by Mike Menzies in conjunction with Colin Palmer at Adhesive Technologies in the 80's. To this day it appears to be the only method that I have seen not fail.

Sorry mate, but I am absolutely correct on the epiglass guy and the information made available by them. I will try and see if I can find the info, but it may not be something that is to be found on line. I can assure you that I am not far off the mark with the info. I can also assure you that anyone that is still using the planning technique is either not up with the latest info and thus misleading boat owner, or does know and is simply ripping off customers. Because there is a lot of money to be made doing it.
Vinyl became available ruffly around 1980 by the way.

 

 

16 hours ago, Rats said:

Mostly I agree, My understanding of the primary purpose of the tissue behind the Gel coat was to prevent "print" of the fiberglass substrate through the gel coat layer, print is where in a certain light you could see the pattern of the fiberglass mat used in the layup through the outer gel coat layer, although I agree it could also provide a barrier to the somewhat porous gel coat allowing moisture to wick into the substrate over time.

Yes correct that was one of the reasons.

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