Small production boats

[Guest]

There's an interesting thread on Cruiser's Forum. They are asking where all the small boats have gone.

We know the NZ sailboat building industry has fizzled, so if someone wants a new boat we have imported AWB's. But we used to build lots of boats 30 ft and under, Lotus/Marauder/H28/D28 - I'm sure you know many more.

 

But what is available now for those buyers? Or like the racers do they keep recycling the old boats we have? What is the smallest production boat available?

[shanson 0]

Me and a couple of mates have been thinking about producing a small, cheap boat, everyone we've spoken too says that there is no market, according to them the boat market has moved to larger more expensive vessels.

 

Personally we think that's because people have been lead to believe that the average family cannot afford to have a boat.

 

SHANE

[Guest]

That's where I was headed. If you could produce a smaller boat at a reasonable price is there a market?Or has the cost of marinas/ins/maintenance made small boats impractical?Or does anyone looking under say 34 ft need to build their own (although the backyard builder seems to have disappeared).

[shanson 0]

yes I definitely think the marina's have priced themselves out of the market, it now can cost many times more the value of the boat to have somewhere for it to sit.

 

We were thinking about trailer boats, focusing on lower cost, lower maintenance eco friendly construction etc.

 

SHANE

[Murky 1]

My understanding, based on some of the costings that have been punted up around here, is that the cost increases since "back in the day" mean you can easily end up putting a boat in the water at three or four times the price of the second-hand equivalents* currently available.

 

There are still people around who see value in that equation but they are a small sector of the market.

 

Conversely there are also people around who are buying some of those older boats, investing perhaps half as much again on a really good refurb, and coming away with something that feels like a new boat but still at a lower cost.

 

* Equivalent used in the broad sense.

[Guest]

I'd agree with Murky. I've spent probably 40K total do 1000mls a year and while most of that is racing we still clock up a months worth of days away family style plus the day trips.

 

I want to spend about another 25 and she'd be almost like new.

 

At 65K I'd get nothing new that would be even close. 65K will only get you 4 new Lasers, as seriously over priced as they are.

 

But I do see a limited market for at 30 odd foot ply kitset boat that could be home built. I think it one was available a few would go. Laser cut panels with a stitch and glue type construction. Today you could make a pretty sweet boat with the technologies and materials available. Sell one to Shanson straight away

 

The cost problem is in the gear more than the hull and decks.

[Guest]

Yep, I've stopped worrying about hulls - they are kinda cheap, so might as well go for good materials etc. Where you can save big bucks would be an outboard vs a diesel, and the big one is rig and associated hardware, which is why I like looking at alternatives to a highly stressed sloop and the associated expensive deck jewellery and too many sails.

Delete electronics, pressure hot and cold water etc and you could build a boat at an acceptable price if you don't put a value on your own labour.

[Grinna 2]

The cost problem is in the gear more than the hull and decks.

 

But hasn't that always been the case? Winches, blocks, rigging, etc has always been a signifcant portion of the cost of building a boat.

 

I'm surprised at how cheap some of the older smaller boats appear to be and while some may be in need of some serious TLC I'm sure there's probably a few bargains amongst them too. The problem is, an older boat for the most part is not going to be an ultra competitive harbour racer so if that's the style of boat you're after you may need to build a sport boat and pay the price for all the fruity gofast gear.

[wheels 543]

I assume we are talking small sail boats. Small fizz boats are being made by every man and his dog down here and there is no money in it. Especially the Ally boat market. Just about anybody with a welder and a Shed is making them.

 

As for Sailboats....Sailboats and cheap don't go together in NZ. The Hull is the only area you can save money. Everything else is a fixed price based on make, and quantity bought at the time. How much saving do you think you can make in a Hull these days??

The big producers overseas are producing 1000's a week. The buying power of hardware is astronomical. So they get to save a little on multi production if the Hull and save a little on buying power of hardware and Hence why they can sell the darn things so cheap. We could never compete with that. So for the NZ market, you are talking special commisioned one off designs where quality over the qauntity is important and the design and fitout is unique.

The only way to biuld a hull in small quantities in NZ and do it cheap would be to find a new material to biuld froma and/or a new technique to build by. I think most of those have been played with. Like blown plastics, Exotic materials where you don't need so much to ge the strength, Alluminium that is shaped using explosives, Wood panel that is cut using waterjet and so on.

So the result at the moment is to build overseas in places like China. Either you biuld using all there cheap crap copies and then sell cheap crap, or you send over good qaulity and build with quality products slapped together in a cheap crap way, or you set up an entire operation and bring in good quality components and ensure Quality control over the build and produce a cheap good boat that has the "Made in China" stigma associated with it.

[Guest]

As Wheels says, there are plenty of fizz boats being built.

The thing is they aren't cheap either.

You won't get bigger than say 6 metres for 50K.

If you look around the ramps there are lots of rigs bigger than 6 metres being launched.

 

What I get from this is that most NZers with money to spend and interested in getting out on the water are not doing it in yachts.

They have spent the equivalent of a 30 ft yacht for something to chase fish with. And drag the kids around in an innertube to placate the wife about how much it cost.

 

The problem as I see it is the cost of purchase is almost small change compared to the cost of keeping it and the time spent spending all that money. 10% of purchase price annual is the cost of maintenance supposedly.

[Guest]

The problem is, an older boat for the most part is not going to be an ultra competitive harbour racer so if that's the style of boat you're after you may need to build a sport boat and pay the price for all the fruity gofast gear.

 

That's a big point as well. Some just have to be the fastest afloat and to do so costs. I know, I've been deep in that area.

 

Now I'm knot the fastest by a long shot but have also moved on to other sorts of racing so can live with a slower so cheaper boat, which in the current plan is working bloody well.

 

I think many who want a boat but think they can't afford it may just be targeting something that isn't what they actually need. Back to that 'want' verses 'need' again and we commonly see many 'wanting' something they don't really 'need'.

 

Oh yeah, some of those small fizzers cost moonbeams. Saw a 7mt one last month that cast 75K and all the dude had to do was fuel it and it's fully all go. He then spent another 50K on toys. Sure it's flash with all the gears but 125K for a fizz????? Knot for me sorry.

[wheels 543]

You have to add into the mix that those that can afford boats these days, have little time on their hands. So they want fast to get to B and back again in the short time frame they have.

[Guest]

Knot to mention 'small penis syndrome'. That's alive and well, luckily mostly in the powerboat fleet.

[Atom Ant 0]

Now I'm knot the fastest by a long shot...

 

Well that wasn't the case on Saturday was it Knot Me! You handed out a serious wopping to us Tropics dwellers. My eyes are still smarting mate!

[Guest]

Didn't they start Y88 production again around 2007? Or is my brain getting fried?

[Guest]

If you want to be the fastest thing afloat forget keelboat racing - it's a mug's game unless you're very very rich. Buy a windsurfer, a kitesurfer or a trailerable catermaran.

[Murky 1]

Didn't they start Y88 production again around 2007? Or is my brain getting fried?

a) unfortunately just the one to date AFAIK; although some strong enquiries from Oz. I don't think I'm giving away any secrets by saying that it came out somewhere around the "three times secondhand" ratio

quite possibly, you lucky bugger. I'm at work and it's Monday.

[Guest]

We are now producing the Shaw 650, which is a high performance sportboat 6.5m long and displacing about 300kg.....in Tauranga NZ. We've already sold boats as far as Europe, Aussie, Asia and USA, and the first one is hitting the water in the next month.

 

Originally we were building in Thailand, but due to some 'issues' (still being resolved) we have determined that since the global recession, NZ is a cost effective place to build and sell around the world.

 

The boat is $49k NZD, which is complete, with sails and ready to race.

 

The larger size boats....I suspect part of the issue is that worldwide people who 30 years ago would have sailed a 25 footer, now want 2 cabins, full toilet, kitchen...and so now the new 25 footer is a 30 or 35 footer. And with that comes the ancilliary cost of marina, insurance, sails, etc etc - if you built a new 25 or 26 footer today, other than racing it as a sportboat, where exactly would you take the thing? And if a sportboat, then it automatically is not going to be so suitable for cruising.

 

I'd say 30 feet is the current minimum for a performance racer, and that's why we have 3 balls to the wall canters at that size hitting the water.

 

At least some of the guys you would think would be racing gorrilla biscuits and high performance monos are now in the 8.5m box rule multi side of things, which is growing and going really well; if you think about it there might be possibly more 8.5s gone in the water than similar sized keelboats in the last 2 years. Which is kind of odd but understandable.

 

The bigger boats more than 35 feet say the newest boats are the best in many respects so people buy these import beasts or go for something custom. But in that 28-32 foot range, so many great OD classes and hot rods and so on second hand.....so people end up buying them and tricking them up or racing them OD (as per the Y88) rather than buying new.

 

I'm not sure this is a phenomenon only in NZ. If you look at Bene, Finot, Bavaria, J etc - seems their big successes are either the OD classes most of which are kind of old...or the boats from 32/35 feet and above.

 

I personally believe there is definitely room for an 8m cabined performance racer/cruiser, and it CAN be built and sold in NZ and around the world. But it isn't going to be 50k NZD, more like 75-80k. For something that will be quick, comfy and trailerable, I am not sure how large the market is for something like that; it isn't anythign to do with the size of the market but everything to do with the fact that in NZ the second hand boats aren't all slow dunghas, there are a bunch of cheap boats that can be rejigged a bit to get them up to speed.

[Atom Ant 0]

Nice lookin boat!

[Megwyn 2]

The problem as I see it is the cost of purchase is almost small change compared to the cost of keeping it and the time spent spending all that money. 10% of purchase price annual is the cost of maintenance supposedly.

 

That depends so much on what you buy! If you buy a run down old girl, she is going to cost you much more than 10% of purchase to keep her maintained. Whereas if you buy a brand new (or near new) girl, she will cost less to maintain.

 

We built our trailer tri from ply, epoxy, and glass. We used an old hobie for rigging, lines and deck gear. When we went to sell her, market gave us around 35% of what it cost us to build. She was 3 seasons old.

 

Although we would love to build again, the cost is prohibitive, when we can buy for cheaper - of course, finding what you want it a big driver for the home builder - there just isn't anything out there!

 

Ms