Yachting NZ to be investigated

[Black Panther 1,745]

That still excludes a lot of people who are not club members. 

Further the current structure dictates the procedure you describe.  That in my experience attracts a certain personality type, that person then becomes part of the problem rather than the solution. 

[CarpeDiem 518]

12 hours ago, Black Panther said:

That still excludes a lot of people who are not club members. 

Of course - that's exactly how club membership works.

 

[Steve 48]

I doubt there’ll be 5000 Jon. Racetrack has 900 boats. Maybe the same for members who don’t race to be really generous. So say 2000 members @ $30.  Not even enough for an office lady. And what are we trying to achieve?  There would have to be a dozen good reasons before you went down that track. Cruisers currently don’t belong to yacht clubs, or very few, what could this new entity do that would attract the cruiser to cough up. We’re a pretty miserable bunch.   I’ve never really minded the multi club/ pay 2 or 3 times scenario if it’s helping the kids and the olympians. Good discussion. 
 

[harrytom 689]

How is YNZ committee selected? Voted in by clubs or individuals? All I know their role is to govern racing but who actually swlwcted the committe can it be changed annually or is it lifetime role? Old boys club at work.

[CarpeDiem 518]

1 hour ago, harrytom said:

How is YNZ committee selected? Voted in by clubs or individuals? All I know their role is to govern racing but who actually swlwcted the committe can it be changed annually or is it lifetime role? Old boys club at work.

They have a board of directors. Elected members get nominated by member clubs and are voted in at the AGM by the member clubs. Board members have a 3 year term. 

[harrytom 689]

21 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:

They have a board of directors. Elected members get nominated by member clubs and are voted in at the AGM by the member clubs. Board members have a 3 year term. 

How are the board of directors voted in?  If so many disgruntled with YNZ why not hold a vote of no confidence placed through clubs?

But then again how many members would stick their hand up to fill positions? Have this in a non boating club,plenty moaning but when time comes to stick hand up many just sit on them.

[CarpeDiem 518]

4 hours ago, boxonsmash said:

It's not as though Abercrombie's performance in the job has ever been much better. 

One of his first acts after getting the job was to vote in most confusing circumstances to remove boardsailing as an Olympic sport [ apparently he hadn't heard of Barbara  Kendall and others].  After substantial further debate boardsailing was eventually restored to the Olympics.  But not until Abercrombie had proclaimed loudly on  RNZ National , " follow me I am the new  messiah, boardsailing is dead .I will lead NZ sailing into the brave new world of 49er's and Nacras" .  That he had never been a successful competitive sailor himself, that was a big call.

But not to be outdone by the International  Olympic  Committee Abercrombie refused to send three suitably competent  and qualified sailors to the next Olympics at  Rio, two board sailors and a Laser Radial sailor.  And certainly  the former High  Court judge  who presided over the Court of  Arbitration in Sport which ruled in this matter stated he believed these sailors were suitably competent and qualified .  He  said  YNZ's conduct towards these  sailors had been " lacking in fairness and natural justice " . In legal terms that's about as blunt and as forthright as a member of the judiciary can speak. What he's saying is that the nature of YNZ's conduct towards these sailors was akin to conduct of the mongrel mob.  YNZ's function is to create pathways and role models which inspire our young sailors to success. Not to stamp on them . The judge further stated that it was too late for him to order any effective remedy. However the Laser  Radial sailor did go the to pre Olympic regatta placing 2nd.  Did Abercrombie consider resignation. Didn't enter his mind for a second. 

And since then at the Tokyo and Paris Olympics slots for Kiwi  sailors were left empty . Why ? 

Abercrombie was closely involved in the failure of the fully funded and approved water sports centre on  Takapuna  Beach. The construction schedule sat on my desk for a long time.  Not content with the 1/3 share offered to them, YNZ got involved with a cabal trying to obtain sole occupancy of  the facility. The YNZ Elite High Performance Centre he briefly renamed it.   In the end it never got built, very much because of YNZ's conduct .  Well done Abercrombie. Did he consider resigning! Not likely !

Now YNZ's conduct towards the sailors it is supposed to serve is now under the microscope . Just like  Canoeing and Cycling recently , similar issues.

Like all Kiwi  sailors,  I am sure, I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for Jo Aleh and Molly Meech.   I personally and I am sure many others , were happy with their  selection for the Paris Olympics and  accepting of the process by which they where selected.  We just wish such rare YNZ common sense had been applied  to other sailors at these and prior Olympics. Why leave our slots empty , ever ?

But the  elephant in the room was , there was no one else to  send.  A team was scratched together late in the Olympic cycle and selected outside the normal and  previously inviolate selection process. Their was just no one else to send ! The cupboard was bare !

Well done Abercrombie, "follow me I am the new messiah" he said,  then just three Olympic cycles later he's doing the headless chuck routine trying to create a 49er FX crew to send .  And he couldn't see this coming ?  Why not ? And likewise the other Olympic classes are hardly seeing crowded start lines in  NZ 

And did he consider resigning ? Didn't enter his mind.

Surely it is time for him to go . But he'll have to be pushed !

And a good idea  for his successor to start with is if we win a slot to the Olympics we send a crew, the best we've got.  

The CEO is responsible to the board.  The board sets the rules.

Five board members are elected and nominated by the member clubs.  A further 4 board members are appointed by the 5 elected board members. 

Member clubs can remove board members.

If people want change, then it starts with their club(s), and they can get on a club committee and make sh*t happen.

Being a board member of YNZ has got to be a thankless job - and it's voluntary!

This thread has actually made me research and understand some of what YNZ do, living in my big boat racing bubble, I am happy for my three club memberships to contribute towards this and more...

https://www.yachtingnz.org.nz/sites/default/files/2024-10/YNZ 2024 ANNUAL REPORT final.pdf

Now back to waiting for my Durapox to cure, which, sadly, is more exciting.

[Psyche 775]

One of the problems in NZ, especially in relation to the 5 ring circus is that we tend to be a bit parochial and think that we should be getting gold medals in every event. I think we have done very well in sailing all things considered, there are a lot of outside factors that dont help participation in the Olympic classes. One is the cost both in time and money to develop a sailor to world beating level. Its huge, most of it falls on the parents in terms of time and money. In addition we have a relatively very small talent pool to draw from compared to other nations. What's a 49'er campaign going to cost annually? Even an ILCA campaign is daunting for average families.

Its easy to lay the blame at the feet of one individual but we all know an organisation is not one person, unfortunately this "integrity in sport commission" is going to bring out everyone with an axe to grind. While there may be some valid complaints to deal with, in my experience these kinds of bodies will naturally attract the disgruntled with a list of grievances, most of which will be irrelevant.

[Editor 34]

Debating or criticising YNZ policies, actions and decisions is fine, but it's a very fine line between opinion and libel when discussing individual employees. 

[boxonsmash 3]

No one  on this forum has suggested we expect gold medals at every event. 

What has been demanded is that we should be able to expect greater clarity and explanation about the selection /non selection of our Olympic sailors rather than press releases about selections that seem to have been drafted by a team of lawyers and public relations people.  No sailor I know was upset that  a number of sailors were selected this time against the previously applied rules , but why not say so.? To say a 35 year old first time Olympian at Paris  was selected on the basis of emerging talent is tenuous at the least..   Why not just acknowledge she's the very best talent  we've got . And admit we can't keep leaving Olympic sailing slots empty,  because we're running out of sailors  and we're going to need to be a bit more reasonable in the future with selection policy.  So why did  Lukas  Walten-Keim have to battel so hard for inclusion when such pathways for others had been so obviously created ?

And that's what selection policy has got to, the need to cover over YNZ's failure to grow the group of sailors that are capable of competing competently at the  Olympics. Perhaps the result of leaving too many NZ Olympic sailing slots empty too often when numerous sailors and  their families and clubs have put in huge effort , money and time to help them on their Olympic journey .And then see that hope destroyed by the inexplicable and self serving  selection policies of YNZ. 

 I am happy to see my taxes and yacht club fees go to YNZ in the hope that those monies help create  fair and visible pathways to sporting success for young sailors. And role models for them and non sailors to aspire to.

Then you hear a Paris  Olympic hopefuls father sat on the selection panel for that class.  Or that a High  Court Judge had severely criticised YNZ's conduct towards 3 sailors prior to the Rio Olympics, and that apparently nothing has changed since.

YNZ's  Christmas week issued internal review report was gruesome reading . Have we not seen such similar issues causing great concern recently with the governing bodies of  rowing, canoe sports, and cycling. Apparently YNZ was blind to their own similar conduct.  And given the findings  into the conduct of these 3 bodies athletes complaints can not ever be described as from  " everyone with an axe to grind" . or" the disgruntled with a list of grievances most of which will be irrelevant" as mentioned above. The conduct exposed by this internal review surely itself demands a  major clean out of staff at YNZ.

Well now YNZ is under an independent spotlight by The Sports integrity Commission.  They will be well briefed if not indeed shocked for their task having read the YNZ internal review.  

If the complaints to the Commission are substantial and upheld surely such findings must itself initiate very substantial change at Board  and management level at YNZ.

 

PS. I have never been more than a recreational sailor though I have ventured as far as Fiji and Tonga in my own boat several times. And none of my own children or extended family have been competitive sailors

[boxonsmash 3]

And further , at the Tokyo Olympics yachting great Peter Lester criticised YNZ  for repeatedly leaving NZ Olympic sailing slots empty.  At the time a crew from Indonesia I think were coming dead last in a 49er race he was commenting on. But he supported their national body for sending them ,and said it would provide them experience ,show the pathway for others and provide role models to their nations youth . 

What would he know ?

[Black Panther 1,745]

In terms of the health of the sport I think ynz should be looking at getting kids sailing. Full stop. When a 35 yo male who is one of our best medal prospects tells me it "just isn't worth it" and " I can't afford to sail anymore ( lasers ffs)". Then Houston we have problem.

Maybe forget about then next 2 or 3 olympic cycles ( who cares anyway) and start building huge fleets of firebug or the oz goose , maybe working with schools. There's plenty of advantages to teaching kids to sail besides winning a gong.

[The big T 45]

2 hours ago, Black Panther said:

In terms of the health of the sport I think ynz should be looking at getting k8ds sailing. Full stop. When a 35 yo male who is one of our best medal prospects tells me it "just isn't worth it" and " I can't afford to sail anymore ( lasers ffs)". Then Houston we have problem.

Maybe forget about then next 2 or 3 olympic cycles ( who cares anyway) and start building huge fleets of firebug or the oz goose , maybe working with schools. There's plenty of advantages to teaching kids to sail besides winning a gong.

When did we stop sailing for fun. Its all I've done - over 65  years and still going. Entered nationals, coastals, match racing in the Stewarts in the 80's,  and heaps of club events. Dinghies, trailer Sailers and keelers. Mostly my own boats. Knocked on the door in lots - never achieved. Probably sailed against Black Panther in Cherokees at Onerahi in the 70's.😊😊

No aspirations of Olympic Grandeur ever - in fact not even on the horizon back then.

Have a son at top class level - 2 volvos, numerous Hobarts, World Match Racing Champ, National Keel boat Championships, Sail GP, Blah Blah but never any input from YNZ.

Did it on his own merit.

Started in a $300 opti. a $100 P which was current in my day in the 60's. Outsailed others, not out financed. Still going strong and achieving - just not in the YNZ circus.

Bring back the Pashion

 

 

 

 

[khayyam 99]

I hear a top race-spec moth is $120k. It's a whole different thing these days.

[Psyche 775]

Once upon a time Olympics only permitted amateurs, that changed in the 80's so now to achieve a medal you effectively need to be a professional in terms of the time you spend at it. That means money especially in gear sports like sailing where you need a might new hull every season and definitely new sails every major regatta! Building competitive boats has always been relatively expensive but 120k for a moth makes a Nacra 17 cheap at under 100k!  You dont need to be a genius to work out that this alone limits a lot of potential aspirants. 

Coming back to YNZ, you cant blame them for what has happened in sailing over the last 30 years. Most clubs look more like Valentines with elderly knife and fork members outnumbering the younger ones (by young I mean 40 year olds lol) Dinghy clubs are different with lots of parents driving the scene, but what happens to all the opti kids after they get too big, it appears that not many of those kids are coming up though the olympic classes in any serious numbers except maybe the ILCA's?

[aardvarkash10 1,085]

This is a perennial discussion.

Whether you like it or not, yachting is a relatively high cost, relatively resource hungry and relatively time consuming sport.  It's up there with rowing and snow sports.

I can tell you from experience that ski clubs are struggling with the same issues in terms of membership base.  The politics of elite snowsports I can't comment on as I have no experience in it.

IMO, Sailing is very unlikely to become a high participant sport, so give up on that.  Focus on it being a preferred sport option for those with the resources.

And don't  miss the opportunity with people who are not interested in a sport, but are looking for a lifestyle.  Developing people who are able to cruise locally, coastally, and then offshore is a market that seems to be underappreciated.

[boxonsmash 3]

I agree sailing is expensive though no one on this forum is saying YNZ is responsible for those costs.   

But the issue of great concern  to many of us is the unexplicable  Olympic selection policy applied to those that have reached the highest levels ,  who have had the money and support and huge personal  effort to get to the top.   Apparently hard and fast rules  interpreted in novel and unique ways to enable some  selections,  whilst others you would think equally worthy of such policy re-interpretation are left behind.   NZ Olympic sailing slots were again left empty at the Paris Olympic. Why ?   We are clearly running out of top level sailors .Where are the new Jo  Alehs and Peter Burlings ?

 And now similar sorts of issues that were exposed in rowing , cycling and canoe sports have now been exposed at  YNZ by their own internal though independently chaired review.  And a further review underway  by the newly established Sport Integrity Commission. Not only does it seem selection policy has been unfair, there have now been allegations of seriously unacceptable conduct towards sailors  by YNZ in a range of other areas.  How much more can young sailors suffer in pursuit of their dreams ?

The internal review itself absolutely demands major change at board and management level.  And if the allegations made to  this new enquiry are substantiated there would be an absolutely undeniable requirement for change at board and management level.

 

[ex Elly 243]

Yes it would be nice to see more sailors sent to the Olympics - especially those who have qualified. But if they send too many who under-perform, they will lose their funding from HPNZ. So it is a balancing act.

 

[boxonsmash 3]

There is perhaps a major  expectation   that if funding is given to YNZ on the basis of a particular class's  results mid Olympic cycle,  that such  funding should be applied to that particular class for the rest of that Olympic cycle .  And it seems that is not what has been happened in the recent past.  Which is why that issue is one of the complaints to the Sports  Integrity Commission. And may  also be a subject under investigation in the current urgent review into the allocation of funding by  Sport NZ.     

We can't win medals if no one is sent to the Olympics.  Which may be why YNZ were unusually though begrudgingly highly flexible in their selection criteria this last time.

[Black Panther 1,745]

120k for a moth?

Anyone know how much the new cherubs cost?