Marina Fire, Tauranga

[eruptn 105]

Fire started on launch, 4 boats very damaged…others near by will be impacted as well as floating finger.

[ex Elly 258]

Wow!  Is River Rebel salvageable?  What is the name of the other yacht?

 

[ballystick 79]

River Rebel's sails, boom, chainplates all gone, must have been hot - doesn't look to be salvageable. Fire was in a launch nearby. 

[waikiore 477]

I wonder if the launch had Lithium ? Looks as if started in the engine area and this follows other incidents where the BMS failed in NZ and offshore. 

[ballystick 79]

The boat that appeared to be the source was fitted with Lead Crystal batteries previously, unsure if they were still there, it was a large cost at that time, I don't know much about them except that they were costly

[Cameron 96]

There is a rumour the launch was having electrical work done by a guy on the piss...

[Island Time 1,293]

On 5/03/2025 at 3:03 PM, waikiore said:

I wonder if the launch had Lithium ? Looks as if started in the engine area and this follows other incidents where the BMS failed in NZ and offshore. 

I'd be interested to read of any incident with LIFEPO4 batteries being identified as the cause of ANY fire, ashore or afloat, BMS failure or not. LifePo4 batts are VERY hard to make burn (ABYC tried to do it and couldn't) - other Lithium chemistries have no place on a boat IMO.

[CarpeDiem 527]

46 minutes ago, Island Time said:

I'd be interested to read of any incident with LIFEPO4 batteries being identified as the cause of ANY fire, ashore or afloat, BMS failure or not. LifePo4 batts are VERY hard to make burn (ABYC tried to do it and couldn't) - other Lithium chemistries have no place on a boat IMO.

Sorry LTO start/winch battery IT said "NO"

[Guest 132]

So, you installed LTO?

I delayed as start lead is still working. And insurance co scratched their head harder than on LFP.

[CarpeDiem 527]

12 minutes ago, Guest said:

So, you installed LTO?

I delayed as start lead is still working. And insurance co scratched their head harder than on LFP.

I put one in for the anchor winch as a trial, although the LFP was actually just fine, but the LTO ripped that anchor up faster than anything... then I moved it to the land cruiser which is 24v start and doesn't have glow plugs, it has a like a mesh heater that heats the air intake - it starts amazingly fine off a 12v LTO, better than it did off the 24v!!!

Because the boat has glow plugs, I am not prepared to run an LTO start battery until I can find some compatible glow plugs - I have not really searched that hard... I am sure there's some available

After a very fun SSANZ Northern Triangle I have been looking at a S2H 2H and found that the regs are somewhat annoying, I heard a NZ registered Sunfast 3300 that had LFP installed from the factory had to rip it out and go to LA because they didn't meet the AU regs....

It's a mine field out there!

[Guest 132]

With all the effort to get to start line, having to swap out your LFP would be a mile too far! When are they going to wake up on LFP?

6 cells or five  LTO ?

" although the LFP was actually just fine",

So you did try starting your motor off your house bank? What BMS do you have? (I think you mentioned way back, but cant remember.)

I'm all set up to switch to house LFP for emergency start of motor with the three switch setup but never had the need.

Unleashing the LTO (6 cells) on your boat glowplug circuitry as you said may result in dead glow plugs at very least. My 3GM30 should be fine as no preheating at all.

Also LTO would never charge past 14V. Probly about 70% soc tho.

 

 

[splat 57]

IT - have the regs/standards been updated now for LFP?

[CarpeDiem 527]

6 hours ago, Guest said:

With all the effort to get to start line, having to swap out your LFP would be a mile too far! When are they going to wake up on LFP?

I have not really gotten to the bottom of it - there's a new (2022) AS/NZS standard which applies to Li batteries in habitable areas.  Some people are applying the new 2022 standard to boats in Australia although from what I can tell it only applies to RVs.  But the CYCA are pretty safety conscious these days so it's probably in some NoR safety regulation...

That standard requires Li batteries be installed in vapor proof area that vents outside and draw's it's air from the underneath but also from the outside.  Any cables must be through vapor proof cable glands.  Pretty much the same as what is these days required for gas installations.

The gasses that LFP expel under thermal runaway are highly flammable, explosive and of course toxic, more so even than there explosive counter-parts.  But as IT points out they don't self ignite and need an external ignition source to ignite them, so venting externally makes significant sense to me.  Although I can see it being quite difficult to implement on most boats that I am familiar with including mine.

I guess it's a matter of time before we get a new 3004.2 and I can't see it not having this requirement.

Of greater concern, all Li batteries must be IEC62619 certified. This completely rules out battery builds using your own Cells and a BMS, because IEC62619 are destructive tests that purposely take the battery cells outside of operating ranges and including crush and vibration testing. And they also combine the BMS in the tests for over and under-voltage cut offs.  So this certification can only be obtained by a laboratory and by that a laboratory certified to actually do the test. 

Some detail on it here:

https://dcdirect.com.au/blogs/news/iec-62619-certification-the-vital-shield-for-safe-lithium-batteries?srsltid=AfmBOoqe1TRz9CQJtTexKTPMX8iRA3PMj8axJZ5P9N67_NBJukg7uF9H

I see the future of buying cells and BMS's becoming impossible under the new regulations and eventually marinas will require compliance to the standards as we saw with EWOF's. 

 

 

[CarpeDiem 527]

8 hours ago, Guest said:

6 cells or five  LTO ?

" although the LFP was actually just fine",

So you did try starting your motor off your house bank? What BMS do you have? (I think you mentioned way back, but cant remember.)

I'm all set up to switch to house LFP for emergency start of motor with the three switch setup but never had the need.

Unleashing the LTO (6 cells) on your boat glowplug circuitry as you said may result in dead glow plugs at very least. My 3GM30 should be fine as no preheating at all.

Also LTO would never charge past 14V. Probly about 70% soc tho.

Yep 6 cells in the LTO. I charged the LTO to 14.4v.  Apparently this really stresses the glow plugs, but I didn't burn them out.  I don't think that LTO is worth it on a boat.  But if the price comes down and I can find some glow plugs it might start making sense.  I pretty sure you still need a charge controller with I-term - if you just run the alternator at 14v I think that just like with LFP you will still overcharge LTO if you run for eg days on a long journey - but the literature is pretty light for LTO so I do not know for sure...

I have a generic drop-in and I don't charge with shore power or solar only the alternator, I have tested the BMS and it cuts out at the limits specified in the documentation, so it's my last line of defense.  I upgraded all the cabling to 90mm2 and changed the charging system as part of the install, the alternator charge controller cuts off at 14.2v @5amps and then goes to 13.3v float after that limit is reached, it also can limit the current.  But I don't need this feature as my batteries can take more than the alt puts out.

[Guest 132]

I've heard it suggested  that you don't need a BMS for LTO's just an active balancer, as you're not likely to get in the individual cell HV cutoff zone.

2.85x6= 17.1V, so charging at 14.4V would need a serious cell fault.( realising that back out of the knee, rested, is probably in the 2.6V (15.6V) area)

Now I am out of the marina I may still pursue the LTO, but will have a bms with active balancing. 

I can see why your windlass was loving it, 14.4V with very little sag! Makes one wonder the limit  V the SM/windlass windings are designed for.

 

[CarpeDiem 527]

29 minutes ago, Guest said:

I've heard it suggested  that you don't need a BMS for LTO's just an active balancer, as you're not likely to get in the individual cell HV cutoff zone.

2.85x6= 17.1V, so charging at 14.4V would need a serious cell fault.( realising that back out of the knee, rested, is probably in the 2.6V (15.6V) area)

Well you don't *need* a bms for LFP either... It's there just in case... 

And there's zero point balancing if you aren't charging to atleast 2.75v / cell

A fully charged LTO cell (eg 2.9v @0.02C) settles at around 2.88v over 24hrs - it's not like LFP. 

[Frank 166]

First time I have heard of LTO batteries, but they seem to be an advance LFP batteries which are pretty good anyway. I  found  a fire extinguisher  for lithium fires, it has some kind of cooling gel extinguishing agent that envelops the battery and costs almost as much as a the battery at $1695+ GST 

[Guest 132]

I get your point but; You do *need* a bms for LFP if you want any credibility with insurance companies or over anxious berth mates. Or, you want to try and prolong the life of your LFP by a few cycles .Also not having one could suggest  legal grounds for lack of safety provisions on *your* installation in the event of injuries. Strike one-diy, strike two -no bms. Or visa versa.

My needs are piece of mind in terms of reasonable eventualities. Besides, data is cool.😆

Good bms’s are cheap ! Also I’m getting old and forgetful.

 

 

[CarpeDiem 527]

2 hours ago, Guest said:

I get your point but; You do *need* a bms for LFP if you want any credibility with insurance companies or over anxious berth mates. Or, you want to try and prolong the life of your LFP by a few cycles .Also not having one could suggest  legal grounds for lack of safety provisions on *your* installation in the event of injuries. Strike one-diy, strike two -no bms. Or visa versa.

My needs are piece of mind in terms of reasonable eventualities. Besides, data is cool.😆

Good bms’s are cheap ! Also I’m getting old and forgetful.

 

 

Of course. And therefore the sane logic applies to LTO 😜

[ballystick 79]

Back to the fire, if it was batteries then I would have thought that the water applied would not have affected the battery fire and the boat would have burnt until it sank.

In this case the fire crew managed to douse the fire without sinking the boats. Initial investigation have been around the shore power wiring starting the fire with further testing to confirm this.