Concern about Maritime NZ

[Black Panther 1,849]

So this morning facebook oresented me a post by MNZ about how many of our lives they are going to save.  In it was a link to a document.  I followed the link and read the document. Two things struck me.

1. Old men are a problem,  they think they know more than they do. This appeared twice. My answer would be that's how we got old, by not drowning. 

 

2. Skippers who won't take advice from passengers are a problem.  I would say whoever wrote that  knows nothing and should resign.

 

Discuss. 

[LBD 240]

48 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

 

2. Skippers who won't take advice from passengers are a problem.  I would say whoever wrote that  knows nothing and should resign.

 

This is actually an interesting one and bravado/ego is often the culprit.

It also needs to be taken in context and timing. I would say after an incident and with hind sight, many a passenger has said " we told him not to" or "we were worried but he would not listen". We will never really know the facts unless ego and self interest is first stripped away.

I agree with BP, this is a wild assumption to make, each incident should be analysed on facts not on ego motivated post incident comments.

That said, sometimes we need to consider our passengers, on occasions they may just know better.

But we also need to be considerate of our passengers and not take them beyond their comfort zone if there are alternatives in any situation... particularly if we want them to come out with us again. Eg, I am usually under canvased when my wife is on board and I pay extra attention to the weather, not because I or boat cannot handle it, but because I would be taking my wife or less hardened crew to and beyond their comfort limit.

 

 

[Psyche 976]

Did consult with your significant other on point 2, if not she may mention point 1 🤣

[Black Panther 1,849]

The skipper is responsible. Part of my introductory speech for newbies is that a sailboat is not a democracy and I am in charge. 

[LBD 240]

2 hours ago, Psyche said:

Did consult with your significant other on point 2, if not she may mention point 1 🤣

Who you are calling a geriatric ole fart...?

[CarpeDiem 587]

The word "passenger" is doing a lot of damage here. On a small craft there is no such thing.

Everyone aboard is crew, even if the only job they are capable of is noticing something and saying it out loud. If someone truly is just ballast, you have fewer hands and more liability, not more authority.

Authority and information/advice are two different things. Being in charge means you make the call and you wear the consequences.

It does not mean you are the only person aboard whose eyes work.

Aviation sorted this out decades ago and airliners did not become democracies in the process.

The captain still commands. What changed is that the person in the right seat is expected to speak up, and the captain is expected to hear it without treating it as a challenge to his authority. And guess what, fatal accident rates dropped.

The merchant fleet went the same way with people management on the bridge, and those ships have a far clearer chain of command than your or my boat.

Your intro speech is completely the opposite to mine - mine goes like "we're a team and this is group decision making, we get to the end together - if you see something no matter how small speak up - if you think I should be doing something differently - speak up, if you think something is wrong - speak up - if you don't feel comfortable about something - speak up."

What keeps people alive is being willing to have the call tested by someone with a fraction of your experience, and either being proved right or finding out early that you weren't.

 

 

 

[LBD 240]

40 minutes ago, Black Panther said:

The skipper is responsible. Part of my introductory speech for newbies is that a sailboat is not a democracy and I am in charge. 

Responsible yes... and then totally liable. Skipper has final say, but skipper must also behave responsibly.... there are always a few captain Ahabs out there.

[Black Panther 1,849]

1 hour ago, CarpeDiem said:

The word "passenger" is doing a lot of damage here. On a small craft there is no such thing.

Everyone aboard is crew, even if the only job they are capable of is noticing something and saying it out loud. If someone truly is just ballast, you have fewer hands and more liability, not more authority.

Authority and information/advice are two different things. Being in charge means you make the call and you wear the consequences.

It does not mean you are the only person aboard whose eyes work.

Aviation sorted this out decades ago and airliners did not become democracies in the process.

The captain still commands. What changed is that the person in the right seat is expected to speak up, and the captain is expected to hear it without treating it as a challenge to his authority. And guess what, fatal accident rates dropped.

The merchant fleet went the same way with people management on the bridge, and those ships have a far clearer chain of command than your or my boat.

Your intro speech is completely the opposite to mine - mine goes like "we're a team and this is group decision making, we get to the end together - if you see something no matter how small speak up - if you think I should be doing something differently - speak up, if you think something is wrong - speak up - if you don't feel comfortable about something - speak up."

What keeps people alive is being willing to have the call tested by someone with a fraction of your experience, and either being proved right or finding out early that you weren't.

 

 

 

I get what you are saying.  I guess timing is important.  There are appropriate moments to speak up and there are inappropriate moments. But the skipper makes the call and carries responsibility. 

[CarpeDiem 587]

6 hours ago, Black Panther said:

2. Skippers who won't take advice from passengers are a problem.

I guess don't confuse "advice" with "instruction"...

I remember sailing once with an old guy who knew it all.  I kept giving him advice - but he knew it all - he didn't need some young guy telling him how to sail - eventually I stopped giving him advice cause he always shutting me down.

you're here to trim the jib - don't tell me what the boats are doing

you're here to trim the jib - I can see the wind shifts just fine - be quiet

you're hear to trim the jib - I don't need your advice on trimming the main

On the way into the finish line I started counting down 7, 6, 5, 4, 

I can see the line just fine shut up would you! 

3, 2, 1, BANG

The boat collided with the Westhaven ODM...

This was 30 years ago - it was a round solid Metal one back then, not the nice plastic ones we have now...

I wasn't invited back

Funny how that kind of reinforces your first point - haha

[Psyche 976]

A competent skipper requests intel, then use experience and skill to filter it and make decisions.

[Black Panther 1,849]

Looking at it a little more. There are two words that are wrong in the statement.  As pointed out passengers is inaccurate.  And advice is wrong. Information from crew, no problem.  Advice from passengers,  no.