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antifouling quandry


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Nice going by the chandlery. :roll: The old "if we don't stock it you probably can't buy it anywhere, now come over here and let me tell you about our new option..."

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I was listening to an interview on National Radio of a guy talking about how punters perceive the value and quality of different products.

The guy basically said that we are far more arbitrary than we like to think.

Price can be a big driver, with a cheaper option quite often being assumed to be inferior quality.

 

We all know of cheaper products that are superior to more expensive options, but we only know they are better due to experience of use.

Forums like this are the way of disseminating that hard earned or lucky break experience.

 

A classic example for me is power tools.

At the cheaper end we pretty much all know that most of the B&D stuff is garbage now, but they still try to command a premium over the no-name stuff.

I bought one of their mouse sanders, that my wife could blow up within the first use (she doesn't stop to let any powertool cool down). They would give her a new one as replacement at M10. We never had to buy sandpaper, as it wouldn't use what was in the box before coming to a smoking halt.

I bought one for $25 from supercheap, that was quieter, vibrated less in your hands, sanded better due to bigger throw of the pad, and the paper was cheaper and superior. It finally expired 4 years later sanding our 45 footer deck and cabin detail bits. I gave it a nice send off as it went into the skip. Unfortunately they are not available anymore.

I now have a Bosch one that is actually a better unit, but cost a heap more and I doubt will give better sanding metres per dollar purchase. Will need to last 20 years to come out better there.

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I had a DeWalt Drill. Apart from batteries, it is still going, many years old now. In stead of buying expensive replacement batts, I shelled out $800 and bought a Makita LXT. Gearbox failed in first year of use. Think I might go back to the DeWalt range.

But in saying that, i have had some real crap tools over the years too and certainly many of those el cheapo's from the M10's etc are junk. They might be alright for small jobs and non-professional, but for me, I can't afford the time you waste going back to the store, going through the Blahblah, getting the new tool, going back to the job and have it work at half the speed a pro one does, have it fail while in the middle of the job and go back through the same scenario of the trip to the store again. False economy. Labour is expensive and you have to have reliable tools and ones that do the job fast.

Actually a real lesson to me was drilling through concrete floors with what I thought were good Concrete hammer drills and then using a real pro DeWalt phenumatic impact concrete drill and having it sink through the concrete like it was butter. That was the change point for me with buying crap. Never again.

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I made the same mistake, bought cheap Placemakers crap, went through about 4 sanders building the proa, they eventually stopped replacing them. Never again. (not complaining about the company - it was my error).

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A year or so back I was hunting for some shirts for the team. The team has some big lads so we needed big shirts.

 

Found some at a cheap department style store, $12 each but knot enough so continued hunting. Found some at a big flash premium brand name clothing chain, $69 each. On close inspection they were the identical shirt with the only difference we could find being the label. They had quite a unique bit of piping in the sleeves which made them noticeable different than all the others we had seen. That shot my image of that flash label right down the dunny.

 

In the marine game a particular 'brand' (A) of a common item is far more expensive yet a lot lower spec than another knot so well known brand (B). We commonly here 'Brand A is the best in NZ' when in fact it isn't and knot even that close really.

 

Dynex, a well known brand that is held up by many as the 'only bees knees'. It is good but certainly no better than many/most of the other manufacturers cheaper and in places stronger low stretch options.

 

I mostly drive a Singsong ute (SSangyong ??) at the moment. Many laugh but I can assure you it is a far far superior wagon than the Holden rodeo it replaced in almost every regard and massively superior in a lot of areas. I'd seriously consider buying another Singsong where I'd never go back to a Holden now.

 

The examples are numerous.

 

And lifetime cost is something many just don't think about. There is a specific US made rope here for use in anchor winches. It is 3 times the price of the bog standard asian crap that is 99% of the market. But assuming no oysters or nasties get to it, it will be working fine in 10 years time where the cheaper option is lucky to go 2 years, most last less than 1 year. Which one is cheaper?

 

Selling a item is a no-no these days, you have to sell the 'brand' and sadly people are getting screwed as they believe it's all about which brand rather than what works or is actually the best option.

 

If $99 anti-fouling works only 1/2 as well as big brand name at $300 you have to be on a win don't you? Haul-out costs ignored a little.

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There is a specific US made rope here for use in anchor winches. It is 3 times the price of the bog standard asian crap that is 99% of the market. But assuming no oysters or nasties get to it, it will be working fine in 10 years time where the cheaper option is lucky to go 2 years, most last less than 1 year. Which one is cheaper?

 

 

I would be disgusted with any rope I bought for an anchor that lasted less than 10 years!!!!!!

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If $99 anti-fouling works only 1/2 as well as big brand name at $300 you have to be on a win don't you? Haul-out costs ignored a little.

I agreed with most of your post but I don't think you can get away with that one. When I did it just recently, the haulout/hardstand costs were roughly the same as the paint. Add in time or $ for sanding, applying the paint and materials (sandpaper, masking tape, rollers, thinners etc) and I don't think doing it twice-over looks quite so flash.

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I agree that cheapest isn't necessarily the worst and that dearest isn't necessarily the best. I've gone to Seahorse not because it's the cheapest, but because having tried the very dear ones they were no better. It was an older guy at a chandlery who said that of all the ones they sold he'd had more good feedback about this brand than any other - to me that sounded like collective wisdom. He also told me to ensure that the boat stayed out of the water for a minimum of week after painting and it would last a lot longer. Again, good advice from an experienced person who knew more than me. Turns out he was absolutely right so I congratulate myself for listening to him. Turns out that Seahorse was and possibly still is the cheapest. The last time I bought it, I paid $70 per can via TradeMe. I've had 18 months out of it - fantastic service per $! The previous time I put on Seahorse it lasted me 2 years - the difference this time was having the bottom waterblasted at the marina 3 times because I couldn't be bothered cleaning it myself - cost me 6 months but I'm not complaining cos the travelift guys at Gulf Harbour are great.

 

I've ordered my can of black antifoul.

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There is a specific US made rope here for use in anchor winches. It is 3 times the price of the bog standard asian crap that is 99% of the market. But assuming no oysters or nasties get to it, it will be working fine in 10 years time where the cheaper option is lucky to go 2 years, most last less than 1 year. Which one is cheaper?

 

 

I would be disgusted with any rope I bought for an anchor that lasted less than 10 years!!!!!!

 

This is used in a specific application that is very hard on ropes. Add in the fact at least 30% of the users are brain dead and it's one place that does just hammer the warp.

 

But outside of that specific way of using a warp I agree with you Squid. But yet again, as one or to prominent marine places are having a race to see who can sell at the cheapest price, by buying increasingly sh*t quality, we will see some ropes (and many other products) last no where as long as they used too.

 

I did mention there was some ignoring of haulage cost Murky but you are right or as close as.

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I had a DeWalt Drill. Apart from batteries, it is still going, many years old now. In stead of buying expensive replacement batts, I shelled out $800 and bought a Makita LXT. Gearbox failed in first year of use. Think I might go back to the DeWalt range.

 

Black and Decker Firestorm range are the same, but lots cheaper. The only difference in the batteries is the B&D has a small tab on it so it won't fit in the Dewalt. Accidently break the tab off and in it goes. Did a few years ago anyhow.

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I've gone to Seahorse not because it's the cheapest, but because having tried the very dear ones they were no better.

And that is an important factor with AF's. A cheap one may work well in one marina and not very well in another. There are a whole raft of issues as to why. Mainlly the water temperature. Water temp means different marine organisims, different growth rates, different life cycle lengths, different critters that eat weeds and algae, the list is huge. Every small difference adds to a big difference in what grows where. Then you have water quality, salinity, fresh water flows, Rain fall, sunshine hrs, tides and currents and believe it or not, the actual colour of the AF can make a difference in some places. So the Seahorse AF may not have as much copper perhaps, but where AA is, copper may not be the main ingrediant that is required to do the job for him. But if perhaps he shifts to another Marina, he may find his AF no longer works as well as it did. Maybe!!

Hence the way I worded my earlier post. If it works for you and it only costs $99, then you have a major win.

But does a $300 can of AF give better performance as a whole? oh yes. I did a test with different AFs in patches and when we hauled, there was certainly a noticible difference. However, the marina I am in does not get weed growth. We have huge flows of fresh water when it rains. So slime is a big player for us along with shell fish, mainly rock oyster. There was a noticable difference with the slime growth on the hull at haul out. The expensive coatings like Micron etc were certainly clean. But I really didn't see enough of a difference to think shelling out with twice or even three times the AF cost was worth it. Now it is possible (although I would have to do that test again) that if I was in the clean deep water of Waikawa, I might get to see a somewhat major difference and Micron may have to be the paint best suited perhaps. They certainly get huge kelps and Mussels growing on the Hulls over there.

By the way, I didn't have Hempel in that test. The boat we have been testing it on is at three years now and just hauled and re coated. Clean as a wistle she was. I will be using it on mine this next haul out with a test against the current AF the yard sprayed on last time. I have tried to talk them into using the Hempel product, but they don't actually want the AF's to last more than a year, or they don't get to haul the boat again next year. I can sort of understand where they are coming from. Put on a better AF and not have the work. But the current AF has not lasted well this time. It is filthy at just on 15mths old. In fact I can not see the colour of the AF much at all. That equates to slower sailing speeds or more fuel use when under power.

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I have liked the ablative types as by the time I get to haul out there isn't so much to take off and build up isn't an issue. It is a bastard to get off above the waterline though! Goes hard as on the bits that are not submersed. Still I'm sure my crew who had a ball all summer long on my tab will be busting their balls to get down there in 9 days time and help me sand it off in no time at all. Lets see 1 x 30 ft boat divided by 5 keen crew = 6 lineal feet each - I bags the bow! Skippers rights! I know that DT will turn up cos he's a real trooper! I couldn't have done it without him last time - that was when a two week haul turned into 8 months...

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