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2nd hand yacht prices = ridiculous


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It's funny you know - I've been boatless for a while, and as one does when one has a bit of time, one surfs the internet "boats for sale" web-sites such as trade me, tradeaboat the two main ones.....I am not ready to buy yet myself - but I like to keep an eye on the 2nd hand marker....and what I see are the same boats for sale month after month, year after year.......like, what nut would pay $40-55K for a Cav 32 for example? Great little offshore cruisers, but anyone knows that even a well cared for example is going to need a re-fit sooner rather than later - which can add another $20K.

I have seen the same Cav 32's on sale for the last 2 years. I use the Cav 32 only as an example as there are many other examples.

A message to owners of 40 year old GRP yachts that you are trying to sell - REDUCE your price, or it will not sell....havne't these guys worked out in the current economic climate it is a "buyers market"?

 

If the NZ dollar keeps up the high exchange rate - then you would be better off buying a "good old boat" in the USA and sailing it back.....the only kickback being visa issues and time to get the o'seas boat offshore ready - but where there is a will there is a way.

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I'm in the same position Rj, and I think that in the last 6-8 months there has been a drop in prices that i have long been waiting for. But not everyone is catching on, so yes there are some that have been on the market forever.

 

Also I see a fundamental paradigm shift happening in boat ownership. The cost of ownership has leapt up and continues to do so. At the same time the DIY'er is rapidly disappearing, either through lack of time or interest, or increased bureaucracy.

 

Which means those "old" boats are becoming cheaper, as the current owner who isn't sailing it anymore still pays for berthage, insurance, haulouts etc. Plus, as you point out, the cost of refurbishment flies up. On many of them, like the run down Cav (i've seen some really cheap Chico's lately) that cost drives the price way down, and eventually, as in the US, we will see boat being trashed as they aren't worth the space they are taking up and can't be economically restored.

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I'm in the same position Rj, and I think that in the last 6-8 months there has been a drop in prices that i have long been waiting for. But not everyone is catching on, so yes there are some that have been on the market forever.

 

Also I see a fundamental paradigm shift happening in boat ownership. The cost of ownership has leapt up and continues to do so. At the same time the DIY'er is rapidly disappearing, either through lack of time or interest, or increased bureaucracy.

 

Which means those "old" boats are becoming cheaper, as the current owner who isn't sailing it anymore still pays for berthage, insurance, haulouts etc. Plus, as you point out, the cost of refurbishment flies up. On many of them, like the run down Cav (i've seen some really cheap Chico's lately) that cost drives the price way down, and eventually, as in the US, we will see boat being trashed as they aren't worth the space they are taking up and can't be economically restored.

 

Hey you are on to it mate. Talking of CHICO's I have seen a couple at lower prices - but I have also seen a couple round the $40K mark that have been on the market for THREE YEARS! Yeah, great heritage, yeah well looked after, but yeah no prosepective buyer cares about all that because- people not gonna be buying at prices that may have seemed right 10 years ago when a quick trip down to the Bank during the housing bubble was all you needed to buy your "good old boat", but a pipe dream these days.

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I was in the same position a year or so back, bought then and have kept an eye on prices since as well.

 

My impression is that prices haven't dropped significantly in the last year, it seems to be more of a case that there are two sets of people selling - ones who actually want to sell and ones who want to hold out for a particular price.

 

Certainly a year ago when I was looking to buy, there were a few R930s and y88s in the $35-$45k range, a Chico 30 and davo 28 both asking low 20s, as well as a marauder and a E7.9 asking high teens. But there were some crazy high prices being asked for other boats. By and large, the good deals sold quickly, and the overpriced ones sat there, and in a number of cases are still for sale now.

 

From what I can see it's more or less the same now, there are some good deals on ones which are seriously for sale, but there are a lot of dreamers around as well, who are going to have to drop their asking price if they actually want to sell.

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one fact that seems to follow 2nd hand boats on the market for a while is the maintenance gets dropped to the minimum and often far far below that,

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For me the key to a second hand cheaper (

 

So you might see an Elliott 7.9 (as mentioned above) for $20k but you get what you pay for. I know when I purchased my E7.9 as a project and then spent 2 years completely rebuilding her at significant time and $$, there is no way I would want to go back to owning a shitter. Thats why you might see an Elliott 7.9 for $20k and one for $50k+. By the time youve spent $15k on a new motor, $10k on paint, $10k on sails, $5k on electrics ++++ it adds up.

 

So my tip is to buy the boat in the best condition that you can afford.

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I saw a particular "good old boat" being privately advertised on Trademe a year or so ago for around $25K...needed a little work, but yeah, thats a reasonable starting price to negotiate a deal. But - it didnt sell. I saw the EXACT SAME BOAT advertised by a dealer a while later at $40 odd K, and then dropped to $30K mark and announces a HUGE price drop! Yeah right - the private seller couldnt sell at $25K so hands it over to a dealer to do the work, dealer ridiculously overinflates the price, then has to drop it, and still isnt near what I first saw the private seller asking,....these guys must think we are thick and dont keep an eye on all these shennanigans.

The "dreamers" used to be us boat buyers wanting to get back on the water - the "dreamers" are now the sellers. As earlier poster said - one days these guys will "get it" and drop their prices.

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For me the key to a second hand cheaper (<$50k) is all about condition, and the price of a second hand boat should be driven by condition. Buying cheap typically gets you just that. And the cheaper they get the less maintenance typically seems to be done - a catch 22.

 

So you might see an Elliott 7.9 (as mentioned above) for $20k but you get what you pay for. I know when I purchased my E7.9 as a project and then spent 2 years completely rebuilding her at significant time and $$, there is no way I would want to go back to owning a shitter. Thats why you might see an Elliott 7.9 for $20k and one for $50k+. By the time youve spent $15k on a new motor, $10k on paint, $10k on sails, $5k on electrics ++++ it adds up.

 

So my tip is to buy the boat in the best condition that you can afford.

 

Thats true to a point. But what I am saying now is that prospective buyers dont care how good a condiition the boat is in or much gear you have - we still aint paying the prices of 10 years ago for these 2nd hand boats! I am sick of seeing advertisers saying "spent over $30K on her - but now need to sell" then they ask a ridiculous price for there 40 year old GRP boat....I don't care how much you spent on her mate, or how "lovingly" you have restored her -I still aint paying these prices.

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Sounds like you might be better looking new then............

 

There will always be a market, which will adjust up and down on a macro perspective depending underlying financial conditions / exchange rates etc.

 

I don't see the worldwide prices of yachts having much influence on

 

A new 34' yacht is going to cost $200k++ so there will always be a market for second hand boats relative to that market. Farr 1020 at $80-$100k, Stewart 34 at $40-$60k and heading down.

 

Sure guys that have their boat on the market for years clearly don't want to meet the market.

 

But while ever boats sell, there is a market. Buyers that don't want to pay the market can enjoy sailing with others or watching from the breakwater.

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But while ever boats sell, there is a market. Buyers that don't want to pay the market can enjoy sailing with others or watching from the breakwater.

 

Yeah, and Sellers can keep watching their boat on the hard, paying their yard or marina fees, making half hearted attempts at maintenance - they can do that year after year........or THEY can "meet the market".

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As I said, guys that have their boat on the market for years clearly don't want to meet the market. There always will be dreamers (both sellers and buyers). And yes it is a buyers market. Some prices are ridiculous and they wont sell.

 

My point was that quality boats that are priced appropriately will sell. I took it you were trying to say the second hand market is overpriced. If that were the case none would sell. The market point is where it is (where ever THAT maybe) and complaining generally that the whole market needs to move down is a little fruitless.

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I agree ab. Every second hand boat will sell, if the price is right. If an owner isnt really motivated to sell, then there is no need to reduce the price to meet the market.

 

Complaining about the list prices of second hand boats is fruitless unless you understand the vendors motivation, or lack of it.

 

FWIW, i bought overseas and paid half what the owner was wanting.

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As I said, guys that have their boat on the market for years clearly don't want to meet the market. There always will be dreamers (both sellers and buyers). And yes it is a buyers market. Some prices are ridiculous and they wont sell.

 

My point was that quality boats that are priced appropriately will sell. I took it you were trying to say the second hand market is overpriced. If that were the case none would sell. The market point is where it is (where ever THAT maybe) and complaining generally that the whole market needs to move down is a little fruitless.

 

Fair points you make....but the market does need to move down imho.

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Of course the obvious conclusion of saying the market is still too expensive is to simply not buy a second hand boat. Vendors won't sell to the people who won't pay a reasonable price (because let's face it, you've said the condition of the boat is irrelevant which really means you want an excellent boat at a bargain basement price) and the people who want to pay bugger all but get a second hand boat in excellent condition will never meet. End result? The second hand market stagnates and dies and no one buys second hand boats, so the price of new boats goes sky high because they're the only thing in town.

 

I say if you won't pay a reasonable price for a second hand boat, go and pay 250K plus for a new one. Or give up boating and play tiddly winks because that can be bought for next to nothing.

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Of course the obvious conclusion of saying the market is still too expensive is to simply not buy a second hand boat. Vendors won't sell to the people who won't pay a reasonable price (because let's face it, you've said the condition of the boat is irrelevant which really means you want an excellent boat at a bargain basement price) and the people who want to pay bugger all but get a second hand boat in excellent condition will never meet. End result? The second hand market stagnates and dies and no one buys second hand boats, so the price of new boats goes sky high because they're the only thing in town.

 

I say if you won't pay a reasonable price for a second hand boat, go and pay 250K plus for a new one. Or give up boating and play tiddly winks because that can be bought for next to nothing.

 

You bet your cotton socks I want to see 2nd hand yacht prices at REALISTIC (bargain basement indicates a "bargain" - you know, like these sellers (dreamers) are doing me a favour reducing their prices - when in reality they should be those lower prices in the first place) prices, or - as you admit - "End result? The second hand market stagnates and dies and no one buys second hand".

And you must be kidding mate, with your talk about buying a new boat. Sons of Donald Trump excluded - who the hell is going to be buying a new boat in the realms of $250K on a forum like this, where I guarantee most of us struggle to make ends meet? Certainly - you'd have to be 1 can short of a 6 pack to think I would be giving a flying f__k about new boat owners and whatever they pay for their gin palace new boats when I start a thread talking about "good old boats".

 

But you know, whatever - I'd rather play tiddly winks then pay some idiotic price for a 30-40 year old plastic boat for reasons I have already stated. You go pay your $50K for your Cav's, your Chico's, your Youngs or your whatevers - you go pay those prices and you enjoy your boat mate, because sailing is a beautiful thing.

 

In the meantime I will tiddly wink away - and the owners of their good old boat that's been on Tradeaboat for the last 3 years can keep on eating the majic mushrooms or whatever they must be on.

 

The guy offering his Cav at $20K is onto it - you mate, are not. If it were not for an unseen emergency a few months ago which sliced into my savings - then I'd be buying it myself.

 

But hey, good post and thanks for reading through the thread, as everyone is welcome to an opinion, but we just do not see eye to eye on this one.

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A boat kept in top condition will always fetch top price (and normally sell quickly)

 

there are allot of boats out there that are just not worth it if they have been let go too far.

 

Take a lotus 950 for example. I have seen run down one sell for 50k and I wouldnt even bother at that price.

 

It would be fine if you did not care about the condition of your boat but for me I like it to be mint.

 

Take the 950 for 50k. After a new motor, windows, squabs, sails, covers, paint etc... You are quickley over 100k

 

That's not to mention all the sh*t you will break when you start using a boat that has not been frequently used every weekend like any good boat owner should :thumbup:

 

For me I have learnt my lesson and i will always pay top $ for a top boat. No exceptions.

 

Anyone got a good lotus 950 for sale?

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A boat kept in top condition will always fetch top price (and normally sell quickly)

 

there are allot of boats out there that are just not worth it if they have been let go too far.

 

Take a lotus 950 for example. I have seen run down one sell for 50k and I wouldnt even bother at that price.

 

It would be fine if you did not care about the condition of your boat but for me I like it to be mint.

 

Take the 950 for 50k. After a new motor, windows, squabs, sails, covers, paint etc... You are quickley over 100k

 

That's not to mention all the sh*t you will break when you start using a boat that has not been frequently used every weekend like any good boat owner should :thumbup:

 

For me I have learnt my lesson and i will always pay top $ for a top boat. No exceptions.

 

Anyone got a good lotus 950 for sale?

 

Despite the fact that Lotus 950's are out of my league budget wise, you make a fair point.

But there is the counter point: These old boats I am talking about (Cavs, Chico's etc) are RARELY in top notch condition - and what I am saying is the prices of these boats not in absolute tip top condition as can be for their age - are so way overpriced that it is a joke.

 

If I found a Cav 32 with everything up to date and shipshape, such as: paint job, osmosis job, rigging, lifelines and stanchions, all through hull fittings,all rigging, sails, motor and on and on and on ..... and, throw in a few nav toys, then I might consider 45K. But some that I have seen for this price don't even come close. Yeah, sure, I admit I made a flippant remark in an earlier post about not caring about the condition - but this is really from being so dissapointed in some of the boats I have seen that have claimed to have spent 20-30K on upgrades, and yet, you look at the boat and you think the guy must have placed a bet on a Blues win at the rugby rather than spend it on his boat - such is thecondition the boat is in - comparatively speaking.

 

This is why, with a bit of frustration - I have basically stopped looking, and until my Bank account is flush again (rather than buy on credit) which will give me options..... I am just going to wait it out until the market meets my expectations, or I might even go overseas and purchase a boat at some stage, and make an adventure of it all.

 

Until then - the bloke you see in line at the Warehouse buying the Tiddly Wink set, that'll be me.

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Get realistic.

 

Add up the cost of that bucket list of desirable replacements and you're over 100k.

 

If you expect a current owner to invest that and then give it away to you for 45k you might as well be one of those turkeys advertising for a free boat.

 

Take something like the Stewart 34. There are examples that sell for 40-60k. But there are examples that have had the full upgrade/rebuild and are like new boats - and accordingly they will probably cost like new boats.

 

Perhaps for some boats "for sale" is something the owner tells the wife?

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Get realistic.

 

Add up the cost of that bucket list of desirable replacements and you're over 100k.

 

If you expect a current owner to invest that and then give it away to you for 45k you might as well be one of those turkeys advertising for a free boat.

 

Take something like the Stewart 34. There are examples that sell for 40-60k. But there are examples that have had the full upgrade/rebuild and are like new boats - and accordingly they will probably cost like new boats.

 

Perhaps for some boats "for sale" is something the owner tells the wife?

 

 

Believe it or not there are people who pump $$$ into their boats and then sell for reasonable prices and those are the ones to get.

 

My current boat has had 40k plus spent on it (not including the cost of the boat) over the past few years and I will be lucky to get 17k for it. Will be a good buy for someone :thumbup:

 

That's life and that's boats. You don't get your money back but you get your moneys worth.

 

You can always judge a second hand boat buy its owner

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