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2nd hand yacht prices = ridiculous


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Example, if you were in the market for one of the world's most popular large family cruisers (Bavaria 46) then these two make the point:

 

1. Locally in NZ you have to spend $342,000 to pick up a 6 yr old model:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-m ... 037244.htm

 

2. Whereas overseas for less cash (NZD$300k) you can get a 'brand new' 2012 version of the same size boat:

http://au.yachtworld.com/core/listing/b ... 77177&url=

 

So if you are browsing in this bracket then it's got to be tempting to buy offshore, right?

 

I see what you're saying and do agree.

But the difference might not be as much as it looks at first glance. I don't know what exactly is involved but there would surely be some duty/taxes involved you'd have to pay... Even if it's just GST there goes nearly $50k if you're buying a $300k boat.

Plus there's probably more room for negotiation on the price with the second hand one.

Then there's the cost/hassle of getting it to NZ.

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Yes yes of course importing involves major extra cost and hassle which many people aren't up for however big the bargain is - they just want the ease of a local purchase.

 

But if you are of that mindset AND your budget is over about $300k, then I reckon that is the threshold at which imports start to merit serious consideration (even after import costs/taxes).

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Plus there's probably more room for negotiation on the price with the second hand one.

 

I don't know. I don't understand new boat prices in NZ either. I know they have to be transported a longer way but the premium does seem huge.

 

Take another example of what will I'm sure be a popular version, the brand new Bavaria Vision 46.

 

Local new price here in NZ seems to be about NZD$425k:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-455913259.htm

 

But back in Europe it's looking a bit cheaper at equivalent NZD$340k.

http://www.boatshop24.com/en/sailing-boats/bavaria-de-vision-46-neuvorstellung-3417378

 

So that $85k price difference is surely gonna make you ask some questions before you just swallow it and sign the check, right? And if you could find one from a US dealer the closer proximity would presumably reduce shipping costs further or even make it possible to sail home for the more adventurous?

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Not particularly disagreeing Ac, but from memory a new boat import gets 7% duty, then 15% gst on top of that. That's most of the difference gone in that example before shipping. Very depressing really.

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Not particularly disagreeing Ac, but from memory a new boat import gets 7% duty, then 15% gst on top of that. That's most of the difference gone in that example before shipping. Very depressing really.

 

Yeah I don't know whether the NZ example I quoted includes or excludes GST.

 

I'm assuming that in general the quoted prices will be on a like-for-like basis, either including or excluding tax. For example the 'sailaway' price of Bavaria 46 Vision in AUS is actually higher than the $425k figure quoted here in NZ so I wonder whether the NZ price is excluding GST.

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could well be.

 

Sail away price gets more depressing, commonly sails and instruments seem to be excluded which can be another nasty bite.

 

I'm not doing a very good job of talking down the second hand market am I

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I am assuming that most of the production boats are built to different specifications depending on the intended market (much like cars). You might have to factor upgrades to handle the local conditions depending on the boat. And then how do you handle warranty issues? Finally there is the profit that the local importer makes that part of is used to promote the brand and hence hold up the resale value.

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I really liked the idea of buying boats from overseas the asking prices seemed so attractive. I was/am particularly keen on the Archambault40 & the asking price had me fizzing until I sat down &ran the numbers..No way I'm spending 150/200k on a boat sight unseen so I priced air fares for 2 people return to croaita...then I priced shipping around 40k (assuming they ship from wherever the boat is which isn't always the case) then I found out you have to pay the gst of not only the purchase price of the boat but also on the cost of the shipping, then you have to pay 5% duty on the lot. Next the thing has to be insured this alone wil make your eyes water, then there's handling fees, customs fees, haul out fees the list got bigger and bigger...time off work etc then all of a sudden boats like kiwi & jesse look fabulous & the price they want for them seems pretty fair. I came to the conclusion.....

 

Rock hard place

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If you buy your second hand boat in, let's say, Europe, and then spend 10y drifting around from place to place, then finally wash up in NZ, your boat in floating but ratty condition.

Do you pay GST and duty on the value of the boat from 10y ago? Or on the value it now has?

Seems a rough deal if they make you pay duty and GST on something that is totally screwed. Proabably safer just to stay in NZ until your welcome is over, then shoot up to the islands for a stretch etc etc ad infinitum

 

What about the poor folk who loose their boat off the coast on the way here. It washes up intact on the coast and is sold in NZ as is by the insurance company. Is there import duty and GST on that? It is surely not worth bugger all compared to what it was worth. It's technically a wreck, after all.

 

Similar case - I know there was a Contessa 32 for sale in NZ a while back, 2y maybe?, it was from Geneva. Not imported. If you bought it, do you pay duty on it's Swiss value? Which is probably 10x it's actual value in NZ or on it's sale value in NZ? understanding that the VAT in Europe (OK Switzerland) was already paid.

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Dr Watson... the value for customs is determined by depreciation on the purchase price at the time of entry into the country ..so if you took 10y to get here it would be a fraction of the price you paid... that is why some people keep their boat registered off shore for a while when bringing it back ...as the depreciation will be determined at the point you pay duty which could be a year or more later (if you make a few offshore trips meantime)

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It's not only boats.

 

Take the price of parts. General chandlery stuff.

 

After running a chandlery in the UK, I moved back here. Small part prices are ridiculous.

 

I wanted a block for the bottom end of the kicker on our trailer yacht, local prices were in the hundreds. I landed two here myself for around $130 for both.

 

Then I checked up on some other prices. I now import all the parts I need direct, it works out at anywhere between 30 and 70 percent cheaper.

 

Similarly, I can pay the same here for a fake Laser gooseneck (no good, I want to race) or insane prices for genuine, or I can import genuine for less than the fake one. No-Brainer, that one.

 

Bear in mind that I'm paying full retail overseas, then paying courier charges. So why the huge mark-up here? And I realise we currently have a strong dollar, but even so, I believe we are paying way over the odds for boat parts.

 

I should hide now, before the lynch mob arrives.

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Then I checked up on some other prices. I now import all the parts I need direct, it works out at anywhere between 30 and 70 percent cheaper.

On some gear only. I can quote you current prices in NZ that way below you'll be able to buy at from anywhere else. Which is possibly why we are sending so much stuff to Europe from here, some of that being made in Euro gear, a good number of NZ companies are doing that across the board.

 

So why the huge mark-up here? And I realise we currently have a strong dollar, but even so, I believe we are paying way over the odds for boat parts.

You're knot pay huge mark-ups, in many case but in some Hell yes for sure, as often you are paying for your convenience.

 

Some years back I was involved in a $3 million dollar (which at the time was mega bucks) market study by a large well known NZ/Aus retailer, across both NZ and Aus, as to why people shop where they do. 75% of people shop where they do for convenience. Only 20% odd shopped where they do on price. If you think about your shopping, how many times have you dived into a place to grab something yet known you could buy it cheaper elsewhere? I think most of us have and do do that more then we probably think.

 

So suss the bigger Chandlers, where are they usually? In massively high rent areas. Why? Purely for your convenience as that is more important to you than the price, more often than knot. So a lot of the price you pay is because you are too lazy to drive 10mins down the road to a lower rent area. Do that and you'd both be surprised and often walk out with a fuller wallet. But, to a degree, the places knot so convenient do set their prices against those big Chandlers as they tend to set the street price, be that higher or lower, it works both ways. But again in do that it does often allow the knot so convenient places to give you a discount or something like that as they may have more room to move but sometimes they don't as the big fellas can run lost leaders a lot easier than smaller.

 

Then there is the 'brand'. A huge amount of the 'branded stuff' is zero different than some unbranded. We are getting some shackles and snap shackles from a EU manufacturer. They sent some samples and we thought WTF?? We asked 'do you buy these from 'BIG brand name W' and 'Another BIG brand name H'? The answer 'Nope, we make them for both of those'. The price we are paying for those is between 9 and 13% of what the exact same item is here, wholesale, except for the brand name sticker someone put on them. There are numerous examples of stuff like that on the market here today. It's a world of 'sell the brand', knot sell the product.

 

We sell a lot of an item to visiting boats, as well as locals. That item is 20-25% cheaper to buy in NZ than it is in the European country in which it is made and than in the UK. Still can't figure out why. Maybe local sales taxes (GST, VAT, etc)??, I'm knot sure. Actually the same applies to another US made item, cheaper to buy in NZ that it is in the US.

 

Then there is economies of scale, volume price breaks, NZ geographical placement, which is a expensive one compared to the big main markets often being way closer to the point of manufacture and a few other things like that which are just all price nasty for a small country with a small market in the middle of nowhere.

 

And of course the old chestnut. Buying offshore is immediately 15% cheaper due to no GST, on smaller $$ items at least. Mind you that comes at a cost to NZ as it means less money for schools, nurses, roads etc.

 

A simple 'NZ has way too big a mark-ups' is far from the single reason in most cases but in some Yes I'd agree there is some burglars in the game.

 

But the game is changing and doing so at quite a reasonable pace. I think in 10 years, maybe less, time the shopper will be facing a quite different market structure. It's happening now and does seem to be accelerating. Will that be good for the boater? Yes I think it will. Will it be good for the big box stores and big brands? I don't think so.

 

Plus there's probably more room for negotiation on the price with the second hand one.

 

I don't know. I don't understand new boat prices in NZ either. I know they have to be transported a longer way but the premium does seem huge.

 

Take another example of what will I'm sure be a popular version, the brand new Bavaria Vision 46.

 

Local new price here in NZ seems to be about NZD$425k:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts-sail-boats/moored-boats/auction-455913259.htm

 

But back in Europe it's looking a bit cheaper at equivalent NZD$340k.

http://www.boatshop24.com/en/sailing-boats/bavaria-de-vision-46-neuvorstellung-3417378

 

So that $85k price difference is surely gonna make you ask some questions before you just swallow it and sign the check, right? And if you could find one from a US dealer the closer proximity would presumably reduce shipping costs further or even make it possible to sail home for the more adventurous?

Being involved with many of the imports I don't think it's quite that easy to make the above comparison AC. The price of a new boat can vary a LOT depending on what the punter wants. I know 2 identical model boats that arrived last year close together and the NZ price was close as 100K difference. That was due to one being nicely speced out and the other having every toy one could imagine. To just take a short browse over them that wouldn't have been apparent at all.

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Or you could look at it all and say 'I.ll be dead soon so I could go out after sailing my boat around for a while or I could go out after only bitching about prices not dropping and never getting one'. I believe it's called Oppertunity cost I.e what will I lose by just waiting. There is a cost to doing that.

 

Or the above simplified - Just get the f*ck on with it before you are dead.

A very good and correct comment.

I reckon I could have got my current boat cheaper, and I have spent far more on it than I ever thought I would, and there is still heaps to go. And this was a boat in good condition!

Would I change the decision? No absolutely not. I have had some great races in it, some cool cruising, had a steep learning curve, scared myself a few times, and met some great people who have crewed on it.

I took ERSATZ's quote pretty much word for word and applied it at the time... No regrets Another 10 months and the finance will be paid off, then there's just the mortgage!!

 

If I hadn't bought the Marshall there's another hell deal on trade me right now that is even better value: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=466856866

Thsts because I'm danm right. Mind you I was shagging Grinnas Grandma at the time so she may have planted the seed in my mind as she sceamed in pleasure from my throbbing man stick.

A comment from a total retarded fuckwit, who probably has no penis at all due to rubbing the thing to much.

 

No knot you Smithy.............this time ;)

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A comment from a total retarded fuckwit, who probably has no penis at all due to rubbing the thing to much.

 

No knot you Smithy.............this time ;)

 

He's back ladies and Gentlemen!! :D :D :D And it's TOO much KM...

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On some gear only. I can quote you current prices in NZ that way below you'll be able to buy at from anywhere else.

 

I'm genuinely interested to know what.

 

I'm well aware that NZ leads the world in several marine fields, but when I see an overseas made block for say $50 on the wall at my local, then see the same block online for less than $20 including freight (around 5 days) then I really cant justify the extra cost.

 

I fully agree about the brand issue tho, I've long since discovered that the "best" brand item is dead long before the cheaper equivalent. FWIW I've never bought a "big H" block, and although I used to swear by "big R" I now use whatever is best for purpose, wherever it can be located. Most times, basic is best.

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On some gear only. I can quote you current prices in NZ that way below you'll be able to buy at from anywhere else.

 

I'm genuinely interested to know what.

A very highly regarded and popular alloy anchor - US made

A set of big brand name boat instruments - Errr... made somewhere that's knot here

AQUA4 anchor chain - Italy

And I'll chuck in a few things motorbike related as I've been shopping for some of that also. About 1/2 the stuff I've been looking for is cheaper here or within coowee i.e. $5 or less per $100 sort of thing. That last bit is when comparing gear sold here in NZ, some of the stuff I got isn't sold here.

 

The chain is reported to me knot that I've check that one personally. I have checked the others personally.

 

And there's a few more things. Sure knot all and quite possibly far from all but there is gear out there cheaper here then anywhere else. Obviously there is an element of where you shop in NZ involved in all of this as well, there are some wildly large price ranges on some gear here. Also the strong NZ dollar sure is helping offshore shopping at the moment.

 

I'm well aware that NZ leads the world in several marine fields, but when I see an overseas made block for say $50 on the wall at my local, then see the same block online for less than $20 including freight (around 5 days) then I really cant justify the extra cost.
Totally agree. I'm just saying that if you have a 'it's everything' mind-set you could be doing yourself bucks, look deep when sussing.

 

I fully agree about the brand issue tho, I've long since discovered that the "best" brand item is dead long before the cheaper equivalent. FWIW I've never bought a "big H" block, and although I used to swear by "big R" I now use whatever is best for purpose, wherever it can be located. Most times, basic is best.
The letters used were randomly picked. But now you mention it in that manner, again agree. I shop for the bit that I think will do the best job. The brand name on that bit of gear could easily be 'Fecking shite Marine Equipment' or 'The worlds biggest flashiest name ever' but if I think it'll work for what I want it to do I don't care. The last bit of gear I brought specifically from a big brand name working on it must be the bees knees was a total disappointment by lasting less than one season before total destruction in soft weather. I do seriously believe there are a few brands resting on that brand name rather than the quality of product it's attached to and that's knot just marine related.

 

I'm just trying to say knot everything is cheaper offshore so suss deep around here 1st, you maybe surprised, and that retail prices have a lot of inputs, some being consumer driven, knot just one from a greedy accountant.

 

A comment from a total retarded fuckwit, who probably has no penis at all due to rubbing the thing to much.

 

No knot you Smithy.............this time ;)

 

He's back ladies and Gentlemen!! :D :D :D And it's TOO much KM...

Sorry, blame the Wakatere Boating Club and that twat of a poster.

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....I live next door to the local boat sales (I have to walk through their section of the jetty to get on my boat)...and I can tell you that boat prices here are VERY low. Bringing in a second hand big boat from the states is even cheaper.

You can land a big (46 foot) fiz nasty for about $200 K

less than the market price. Given say $50K for 110 to 240V conversions, and general repairs and service, it is still a big saving.

Small keel boats around the 20 foot mark are just not selling. Even larger ones that need some work are not moving..unless they are very cheap.

How cheap ?......I just sold my 30 footer for....2 grand !!

 

As to spare parts...anything over $50 I usualy can get cheaper from overseas. Sad but true..Blocks and rope clutches over %50 cheaper.

 

To counter this, some manufacturers will no longer sell into Oz or NZ so that the local dealers have a monopoly. They justify this by saying that the local dealers have to provide after sale service...

BOLLOCKS I say...if the products are any good then there shouldnt be a need for after sales services..(waranty)

They also say ...its because they have to hold stock....

... So be it...but thats not my fault.

Besides, I can usualy get the part quicker from OS by mail than from local mail !!

 

The joke here is that you can go to a retail American boat shop on line and still get these parts cheaper.

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I used to order stuff from the UK but I was confident cos it was the chandlery that I used to shop at when living there. Haven't done it for a while.

 

I became convinced that the whole 'location and scale of NZ' argument is bollocks when my UK chandlery quoted me significantly cheaper prices for Navman instruments, back in the days when they were made in NZ. In other words I could buy kit that had been made in NZ, transported to the UK and could be transported back to NZ (inc all the tax sh*t) for cheaper than I could buy it locally.

 

For some strange reason I decided to NOT buy the Navman stuff in the UK and that was a lucky decision - because it proved so unreliable that the various instruments needed replacing multiple times. And that happened a lot easier cos I had bought it locally than if I had imported it.

 

But next time I reckon I'll buy qualkity kit e.g. B&G and do my price research again and if it's much cheaper then take the gamble and order from offshore. The worldwide cruisers have to live with worldwide warranties and they don't have too kuch trouble, from what I've heard. It's a global world after all and we're all moving around - especially boats for god's sake - so it makes sense.

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Does anyone have any suggestions for good site to order gear from overseas?

 

As ive just mentioned to AC on techtalk, about 12-18 months ago i bought some raymarine gear from www.marinedeal.com and saved 30+%. They even followed up with a phone call to ensure everything arrived and i was happy! Very impressed i was.

 

I dont know how they compare on other bits.

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