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Of course you/we have a right to ask others. To say you don't is freakin rediculous and the person saying such doesn't understand Human Society. Sheesh! Whether you chose to or not is up to you.

To go out unprepared and unskilled is asking for trouble and is nothing more than contempt for those "others".

There are two problems with people in the world today, those that don't want to lend a hand and those that refuse to take the Hand offered.

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The long and the short of it is we do need some system like Cat 1, in todays world. Back in the day it wasn't so important but today we do need something.

 

It's way too easy for anyone to buy a 'Ocean going Brav, Benny or whatever', take a 3 day CG Nav course, grab a GPS and ERPIP and then head into the deep blue all fully prepared as they believed the marketing and know as soon as they get uncomfortable they can pop off the ERPIRP and get a ride home.

 

We need something to save the country many millions of dollars in S&R costs due to the above morons. Sadly those of us who know the deep blue isn't quite that easy get dragged down to the dumbest level, as is the society norm these days, and have to live with it.

 

In my experience a Cat 1 Inspector starts sussing right from the moment you get hold of them. The more organised/experienced you are the far more flexible they are. Freak the Inspector and they'll look a lot harder and deeper. I've never meet a NZ Cat 1 Inspector I'd call a bunny or a dickhead, all have been very much the opposite.

 

There isn't that much I'd leave off of Cat 1 list, probably more I'd enhance or tweak if anything to make it actually useful. If you can articulate the ins and outs of such tweaking to Inspectors they will often let you 'bend' the rules, so to speak.

 

Depends a bit on what I'm doing in what boat heading to where. If solo I'd leave heaps behind, if fully loaded with knot knowledgeable crew I'd take a lot more gear.

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The long and the short of it is we do need some system like Cat 1, in todays world. Back in the day it wasn't so important but today we do need something.

 

It's way too easy for anyone to buy a 'Ocean going Brav, Benny or whatever', take a 3 day CG Nav course, grab a GPS and ERPIP and then head into the deep blue all fully prepared as they believed the marketing and know as soon as they get uncomfortable they can pop off the ERPIRP and get a ride home..

 

That's basically what I did. No EPIRB, but I did a 5 day RYA offshore Yachtmaster course, equipped the boat then sailed away with 4 other non sailors. The longest passage we did was a 48 hour hop, so it was basically coastal hopping, but we survived just fine. Prior to that just Dinghy sailing and the odd coastal hop. Sailed from Brighton to Bordeaux, then came back via the canals with the mast on the deck, then sailed down the North Sea back to Brighton.

 

Most of the time I agree with KM, (That's a worry) but not on Cat 1. I think it is too restrictive, and still won't stop people being overconfident and setting off then getting in trouble. Having Cat 1 in itself gives you a false sense of security I reckon.

 

What is so diferent to yesteryear KM? EPIRBs?? I guess that's the only real difference, that is going to cost NZ or someone a lot to rescue an idiot, when he sets it off, wheras in previous days he just wouldn't have turned up.

 

Regarding Eric Hiscock's notion that we don't have the right to call for help: Bollocks! I would help anyone else at sea, and I also pay my taxes, so I would expect help from the NZ navy if I really got in the poo. I DO agree with him that we have a responsibility to other yotties not to get in trouble and use up all the good will that is out there, and introduce pressure for further legislation, but that's all.

 

Like I said before, the more sailing certs the guy has, the more likely he was to be useless in my previous experience, but I guess that was on flotillas and an experienced skipper would just charter bareboat.

 

Enough, I'm rambling!

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Just a thought - there are huge chunks of the ocean where you are not going to be rescued. An American couple not that long ago pressed the red button somewhere towards the Seychelles. that bit of ocean was India's responsibility. India said "I'm busy, go away". They drowned.

 

Don't get too used to it.

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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

 

* This was written by Franklin, with quotation marks but almost certainly his original thought, sometime shortly before February 17, 1775 as part of his notes for a proposition at the Pennsylvania Assembly, as published in Memoirs of the life and writings of Benjamin Franklin (1818). A variant of this was published as:

o Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

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Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Yeah and look at where American society is today. What a load of Bollocks. We all moan and whine about where Society is at today and this attitude is one of the main reasons why it is where it is.

I would also suspect that the quote is taken out of context to what was happening at the time.

So if you go in the other direction then, of look after yourself, expect no help from anyone else, then ultimately you disolve all authority. but before I hear great cheers and Hear hear from you all, that means a return to the Old Wild West days of no law and order. At sea, that would mean uncontrolled Piracy. So you see, there always has to be some form of Balance between Freedom and Anarchy.

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I think it would be perfectly reasonable to drop the search from search and rescue. The planes only go up when a distress signal is received. Then the skipper decides what equipment to carry. If he chooses to carry no communication then no rescue. If he chooses an epirb, 6 radios, 400 flares a satphone an internet connection fine.

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Here trying to get some work done and next thing I'm getting flashes of bums, large carrots or some thing similar along with burning ears.

 

Sorry Squid and others, you can't absolve yourself from everyone elses desire to save you from yourself. As grown up and knowledgeable as you are I am sorry to say there are 100's if knot 1000's who, while having zero experience of you or sailing in the deep blue, know better for you. It appears reading here you have zero idea of what is good for them you selfish bunch of bastards. You should be ashamed of yourselves :wink:

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Having been in boat building and needing to make sure the boats had all the correct gear onboard, done a few miles and had many inspections on many different boats as well as having had many discussions about safety items, the reality IMHO, is that all the safety requirements have been basically "WRITTEN IN BLOOD".

 

What is lacking is a reference back to the source or accident that now makes the particular item a safety requirement.

 

E.g. A life jacket for each crew member => Titanic, 800 life jackests for 2,000 people. (I don't know the exact numbers, just a wild guess.)

 

E.g. A passive radar reflector => UK drive for radar in English Channel busy shipping lanes. (I once only saw "CHEVRON"" on a big tanker crossing our bow (Swan 48) because the funnel at about 45 to 60 degrees (or more) upwards was above the fogbank. Never saw the hull but we were really VERY close.)

 

E.g. Second set of nav lights. => Sensible cheap step.

These days having a triolour at mast head and lower sidelights meet that requirement. In addition we have a battery set as well.

However, there is no safety requirement for checking that we can display the correct light signals for being aground, not under command, have a diver down at night, be fishing at night, nor for the day shapes for being at anchor or motoring with sails hoisted. Yet the International Regulations state these are needed, yet in NZ who cares? who checks? who has these onboard already?

 

Perhaps the emergency light battery units (3 in a set) should have extra red, green and white lenses so the correct lights can be shown when needed.

 

The above ref to Cat 1 requirements (Bill & Betty?) is overseas based because some of their comments are not the same as NZ Safety Regs.

 

E.g. YNZ require a 406 EPIRB. They recommend a 406 with GPS. Next edition should have a comment or reason e.g. Time to Burn, 1 life lost 50% of crew, as 1.5 hours lost waiting for next satellite pass to obtain position so nearest rescue center only 15nm? away could be alerted.

 

Makes the $300 extra for upgrade to a GPS EPIRB economic. Would like to think my life is worth at least $300.

 

Perhaps with the history and reasons available would make minimum compliance more acceptable.

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Hi Paul.

 

The thing is I would do it anyway! With the EPIRB, yup, go the extra dollar and get one with GPS. No question. I just hate being told that I HAVE to do it. My limited experience tells me that making stuff manditory doesn't mean it makes it safer. If you make up your own mind to fit this stuff, somehow, this means you have investigated it and thought about it, rather than just ticked off someone elses list.

 

Oh, and the rader reflectors? According to the recent tets I have read, worse than useless. I too have seen the ships come out of the fog. Never been more scared..

 

It is good to hear that the Cat 1 inspectors in NZ are experienced and reasonable guys though. I can imagine getting a burocrat on his little power trip. That would be a nightmare.

 

Compulsory Cat 1? NO from me.

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I just hate being told that I HAVE to do it. My limited experience tells me that making stuff manditory doesn't mean it makes it safer.

 

Yes having it doesn't make you safer, it only gives you the wisdom of some collective minds applying themselves to the task of trying to help those less experienced.

 

Personally I dislike all the extra GPS's one needs. Now if they specified "chart plotters", they are more useful and you don't need to plot Lats & Longs on a paper chart in an emergency.

 

If the reason for extra GPS units is because early models were not very waterproof, then the newer units that can be sumerged 1m for 30 minutes, could allow for a reduction in the quantity and costs of having so many units.

 

Personally a sextant, tables, accurate clock (and a small transistor radio to check the time signals and be a RDF) would be a cheaper backup package with a music option included.

 

OTHER ITEMS:

It would be great to have a suggested list of ocean cruising grab bag items with sources.

 

E.g. the Bailey's 108? days afloat book had several suggestions. One I remember was a wire trace for fishing rather than just nylon to the hook. Unfortunately I read that book years ago but it would be great to have the their tips included.

 

Yes ther are many books on sailing tips. I have about 10 already and happy to state just yesterday bought another: "Sailing Secrets".

 

Several tips there, one of which was using wet weather trousers to knail to the hull beneath the hole in the hull and then tighten up on the ropes lead through the legs. However this should be on another current thread. So I'm happy to say that I have learnt another poentially life saving tip just this morning.

 

Knowledge weighs nothing in a survival situation.

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Nothing unreasonable here. I would vote with Smithy on this one though.

 

Another niggle I have is a tendency (lately ) to over react. One incident and the powers that be are looking for a rule or item to stop it "ever happening again" - even if this is the first time it has happened in 30 years. Sailing to Fiji is safer than driving to Welligton.

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Nothing unreasonable here. I would vote with Smithy on this one though.

 

Another niggle I have is a tendency (lately ) to over react. One incident and the powers that be are looking for a rule or item to stop it "ever happening again" - even if this is the first time it has happened in 30 years. Sailing to Fiji is safer than driving to Welligton.

 

Right on brother. And don't get me started on the driving again. :evil: :evil: :evil: Speed Kills. Yeah right... Dumb everything down to something they can measure and enforce and gain coin. That will work! NOT!!!

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"So if you go in the other direction then, of look after yourself, expect no help from anyone else, then ultimately you disolve all authority."

 

Well thats a funny view to take of the Hiscocks and their peers. :wtf:

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Yes of course you certainly have to look after yourself and you certainly have to prepare for "help may not come". And that is actually the entire point behind Cat1. The equipment they say we have to have, is because of those two main points. The authorities are saying "you have to look after yourself and this is the gear we have found from experience, best suits that task". Whether that is the case or not, seems to be part of the argument.

For me, without getting stupid about it, I have onboard, or intend to have on board stuff that keeps me and my wife as safe as can be possible in the situation till help does come, or the situation allows me to then sort a means of getting to a port. I don't have a reckless disregard for my life and hope to to survive the situation so I can have another attempt at sailing off into the sunset.

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A bit like Wheels, I take what I think will sort me if it goes bad. Then I add the stuff to shut the Inspectors up as those are usually 'trinket like' in nature and value usually anyway. Then after the inspection I take off all the stuff I can see no use for, usually just trinkets.

 

I have been known to borrow a pile of gear just for the Inspection and then return it before sailing off. Naughty I suppose but make the departure process easier and does little to enhance or detract from the trips safety..

 

If I was solo I'd be leaving around 1/2 the Cat 1 list at home. Bit hard to grab and throw the Danbuoy to myself if I'm already 100mts behind the boat and stuff like that theory.

 

I also up the 1st aid kit though. No idea what some of the Cat 1 stuff is so prefer to take stuff I actually know how to use and administer.

 

But no point discussing, no way in gods little green and blue world are bureaucracy going to back down, way to many vested interests involved.

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