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Rob Denney at tthe clubnight


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While I like offender's reply, most proas , and certainly the harrys, can tack and gybe, they just generally choose not to coz it's not as smart as shunting.

If I were skippering a proa in a race and had to do a penalty turn I would do it the same as a "normal" boat, just to avoid controversy. It would mean being "wrong way round" for a boat length or two, then back to normal and away you go.

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is anyone else reading this and thinking WTF?

 

I don't know what's happened here, but it's not pretty in the least. I thought new ideas would be embraced and acknowledged, if they pan out; not lambasted before they even hit the water. Kiwis are an ingenious bunch when left to our devices, as the people fighting for class racing will attest to.

 

It's one thing to knock the idea or technology, but this is getting personal. Either agree to disagree, or wait until the rubber meets the road...or hulls meet the water, if you like.

 

If I wrote on forums I was going to build a 15m foiling trimaran that was going to weigh 500kg take 400 hours to build and cost 40k everyone would make fun of me.

 

Then If I kept talking about it a year later and still hadnt done it everyone would probably get a bit personal and tell me to f*ck of and stop talking about it and actually do it.

 

Unfortuanatly Rob D likes talking about his wonderful racing proa idea but will never actually build it or race it- thats why everyone thinks he's such a fuckwit

 

At least im building a boat, and making progress not just talking about- maybe Rob D should try it sometime, he would get a lot more respect than slagging off successful trimarans and Catamarans

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There is a rumour of an Atlantic Proa still sailing in circles of the coast of France after starting in a Route De Rum some time in the eighties. It is said the confused skipper is unable to tell which bow he used to start the race with and is stubbornly (typical of a Proa Sailor) trying to sort the matter out.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Rob

 

please do not take it any other way than we are just having a bit of a laugh.

 

we aren't stupid and know you have heaps of really good ideas, and power to weight is the king and on that front you will be very hard to beat.

 

But we are allowed to speculate and a little humour at times can be good for the soul.

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Now back to your first match racing scenario:

 

unfortunately for you the on the water jury has ruled against you and your sallyproa as you have not afforded Taeping reasonable room and opportunity to keep clear.

 

(By the way your smugness and over confidence has gone down badly with the International jury as well)

 

So you have to complete a penalty turn.

 

Rules are a 360 turn including 1 tack and one gybe.

 

So we know you don't do those, although I know you can.

 

anyway, rules are rules, so no shunting allowed.

 

I'm thinking as you complete your circle that the mainsheet is going to go around the mast.

So after completing the turn you are going to have to do another turn the other way to untangle it !

 

I have also noticed in your description of a shunt you have not allowed for turning on and off your nav lights.

 

You will need two sets of bow and stern, nav lights and you will need to hit a switch to turn the appropriate set on or off.

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On a more serious note I did ask Murray Jones (Alinghi) how much of their budget and time they used in investigating a Proa instead of a cat or a tri.

 

The answer was they did not view the Proa as a serious option.

 

I will speculate on just a few possible reasons why.

 

Think of a Tuna swimming in the water. Its body shape is very streamlined. Its far from symmetrical at both ends.

asking your hull and foils to go both ways through the water ,they simply cannot be as efficient.

 

Rig:

 

I don't like your rig.

The other AC boats have stays, I think there are some good reasons for those.

The super efficient BMW wing was held in place by stays and without them you wouldn't be able to raise and lower the rig.

 

They also have a mainsheet and traveller for leach control and to depower in gusts.

I don't see how you can sheet your sails as effectively.

 

The gennakers need a tight luff to work, and that will cause the tip of your mast to bend forward, so not sure how effective that will be.

I also note that they don't sheet their gennakers dead on the centreline at the back as you are going to have to. Seems like you will end up with less forward drive and more sideways drag.

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I am actually really looking forward to seeing the Proa racing, in fact I just can't wait. It would be great to have a bunch of them sailing.

 

But for you to come away from a club night with 4 confirmed orders.

 

Mate you have done very well there.

 

A lot of people talk about it at club night but never actually go on to do anything about it, and we all know times out there are very tough

so even though some people may have the best of intentions in the world you may not get quite as many of them sailing as you wish.

 

Budgets:

Rob all your budgets and costs never allow for your time, you are only ever talking materials.

How can you compare those figures with others that include labour?

Your boat isn't costing $10k unless you will sell it to me for that much, then because you are building 4 you will have build them all for nothing with no way to cover your overheads.

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Rob

 

It may not come across that we all do wish you well, we are all keen to see more multi's out racing. And a budget version of a 50 footer will be an awesome sight and if it consistently beats Taeping that is fantastic.

 

I really do wish you all the best.

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Mr Wolf,

 

have you not got a boat to be fixing ? you seem to be spending way to much time on these forums!

 

I believe you once told me that I didn't have any posting rights untill my boat was sailing again...... I think the same should apply for you ;)

 

.....I did like the bit about the mainsheet getting wrapped up around the mast though :)

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Cat 5 YNZ Safety regulations, clause 7.4 (M):

 

"A multihull yacht shall possess sufficient windward ability and assurance of coming about in

bad conditions to enable her to tack away from a lee shore or other extensive obstruction"

 

Tell me this, when you shunt do you not go backwards (to leeward) at some point ?

 

So based on the above you can't get cat 5 in NZ, so too bad for you all the boastful statements you are making

can't be tested because you won't be allowed to race.

 

As to the Americas cup being in Proas, mate take a look at yourself !

 

Getting a bit strident there, Tim. Still not answering any questions from earlier in the thread, though.

 

You sound a little bit worried. Last year you were full of how the NZMYC was so broadminded, they would let anyone on any type of boat race and my proa was welcome anytime. At the same time you went to great lengths (including an irrelevant mini essay on painting techniques) to "prove" there was no way i could build a 50'ter at the weights I claimed. Now I have built the boat, it does weigh what I said it would and you are abusing me, quoting rules and telling me I won't be allowed to race.

 

Desperate might be a better word than worried?

 

The answer to your question is: At all times in an upwind shunt I am further upwind than I was at the start of the shunt. Unlike a cat or tri caught in irons and going backwards in big seas.

 

As anyone who has made the effort to understand shunting will tell you, shunting a proa in big seas and high winds is safer and more reliable than tacking any boat, multi or mono.

 

As for the legality of proas in "your" races, I am flattered you are worried/desperate enough to wade through the rule book to find something you can use to ban them. Bit of a time waste though. The first ISAF (under whose jurisdiction NZMYC races) rule states that "Proas are excluded from these rules". Not from the races, just from the rules. That should give you and the other bush lawyers something to discuss. Before you waste too much time on it, be aware that whatever you decide, it will make no difference whatsover to whether I decide to enter races or not.

 

Are there any NZMYC race committee members willing to comment on whether a proa will be banned from a cat 5 race because it shunts off a lee shore in a gale instead of tacking?

 

RE: "getting on with it" and "doing it",

 

I am. My boat is pretty much ready apart from the rig. It is a bit rich that you can't find the time to price a run of the mill mast, yet you are criticising me for not having enough time to design and build a mast which will cost less than half a Hallspars equivalent, plus it telescopes to half it's length.

 

There are approx 40 other boats to my designs being built or sailing, and another couple of hundred who are interested, many of whom I am in regular contact with. Boat building and experiments take third place to this and my day job. While 300 hours is a pretty quick build for a 50'ter, it takes a lot of thinking and experimenting to come up with a build system and results which you and the other know alls said were impossible, cuckoo, a joke, etc. The mast build technique and associated problems are an order of magnitude more complex than the hulls.

 

Re proas in the AC. Hopefully I won't have to explain this to you as often as I did that W is not a proa. What I posted was a quote from the guy in charge of the BMWO trimaran design team. It was nothing to do with me.

 

rob

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Rob thank you for your reply. Unfortunately it is not my boat to say we will come to aus however there has been quite a bit of talk amongst the crew about comming over to do the sydney to gladstone race at somestage. It may happen one year but we will have to wait and see.

 

Instead of build cost why don't we go on resale value. That is a more market indicative price.

 

As for you scenario of a dial up I think it is alittle ambitious. Lets look at it like this. taeping has come in and taken harryproa head to wind. We are all in irons now. harry proa decides he is going to flip his rudders around and sails. Taeping is already going backwads reversing out of this situation. Harry proa is now on port and taeping has backed out across her bows on starboard. now a port starboard penalty to harryproa.

 

Now lets move up the first leg. harry proa comes at taeping because it points so high and goes so fast. Taeping crew see harry proa climbing over her so tack onto stbd again to cover. both boats aproach for the first cross harry proa is too close to bear away into a shunt so port starboard again. another penalty on harry proa. Taeping wins the race because harry proa has penalty turns to do at the finish. That is turns not shunts!

 

The flaws in your start theory are

1)there is a big wind shadow behind taeping. no boat will accelerate through that in enough time to get leward boat advantage

2)watching your you tube

it takes a huge amount of time to shunt and you would lose massive amounts of ground sailing up wind which is clearly shown and that is only a small proa

3)you underestimate how manouverable taeping is and how quick to accelerate it is.

 

As for the you tube video of what you call the overweight cruising harry, any multi with the exception probably of a wharam would get along at close to that speed because they are no where near to being on the wind. They are effectively cracked sheets reaching. We on taeping know they won't be on the wind as we too had a mast that wobbled around like that one and if we were not flying a hull we could not point as we had no midleach tension which everyone knows you need to point. The mast is out so this can be rectified.

 

I thought that was a very nice reply from Ian Burns. Considerably PC way of laughing without laughing.

 

I am sorry rob but until I am convinced otherwise as another poster put it "the rubber hits the road" I will still disagree. Good on you however for giving it a crack!!

 

Seems you ignored my advice to think about and understand shunting before you commented and confused yourself. Remind me when I get back and I will draw you some pictures.

 

You also neglected to answer the 4 simple questions to allow us to judge your credibility on shunting and proa maneuverability.

 

And to accept, or refuse the race challenge which you initiated.

 

Thanks for your comments on the cruising proa. Like you, every catamaran enthusiast knows that all cruising cats sail at windspeed all the time, but for some reason no one ever takes a video. Show us some videos of similar cruisers doing similar speeds and your comments will have some veracity.

 

You also forgot to comment on the performance potential of the racing version, which was why I posted the video.

 

Waiting for "the hulls to hit the water" is the sensible, conservative thing to do. Pity you didn't consider this before you posted your 'dead horse proa smackdown' tripe.

 

I don't see the relevance of second hand prices, but let's split the difference on the as new/second hand prices and use the difference between them. Probably still be a factor of 5. Not that it matters if you are not going to race.

 

I have no idea whether Ian Burns was laughing or not, but he and Iain Murray definitely designed a proa for the '88 AC. In a tradition proudly followed by Mr Wolf, for probably the same reason (fear of getting beaten), the kiwis would not let it race.

 

rob

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is it actually possible for a proa to complete a penality "turn" correctly ?

A penalty turn in a proa is pretty much the same as in any other boat. You sail in a circle, including a tack and a gybe. No shunting involved. Perhaps we should add one per lap onto the maneuverabilty race with Taeping.

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If I wrote on forums I was going to build a 15m foiling trimaran that was going to weigh 500kg take 400 hours to build and cost 40k everyone would make fun of me.

 

Then If I kept talking about it a year later and still hadnt done it everyone would probably get a bit personal and tell me to f*ck of and stop talking about it and actually do it.

 

They certainly would. But if you had already built a 2,000 kg cruising version, and posted all the details about the laminate and the build technique you would have a bit more credibility, maybe even get some respect. And if you did manage to build it, most of them would have the balls to admit they were wrong and maybe even want to know how it was done. The curious might speculate on how quick it would sail and how you would control it. Meanwhile, the ones who refuse to see or hear anything they disagree with would keep saying it can't be done, and get increasingly hostile. The really upset ones would start looking for rules to ban it, the out of control ones would start swearing.

 

Unfortuanatly Rob D likes talking about his wonderful racing proa idea but will never actually build it or race it- thats why everyone thinks he's such a fuckwit

 

As I said at the talk, my boat, sans rig is pretty much ready to go. You didn't have the balls to question my numbers then, and still don't. It has taken 300 hours, weighs 366 kgs and has cost $10.000 in materials. Pretty much as I predicted, although the launch date was way out, for a bunch of non boat related reasons which are none of your business.

 

As you know, there are photos and a spreadsheet of costs and hours on the harryproa chat group. Instead of spouting off about how much you dislike me, why don't you have a read of that and comment on the boat and the build technique. It will probably upset you that you have spent so many hours and dollars building a relatively complicated, heavy boat but you will at least have something relevant to talk about. By the way, are we still on for the race you mentioned in the proa thread?

 

Also by the way, you never replied to the request for hours, costs and laminates for your boat on SA. Is this because you are as embarrassed about it as Tim is about his mast prices. Or don't you have enough time, either?

 

At least im building a boat, and making progress not just talking about- maybe Rob D should try it sometime, he would get a lot more respect than slagging off successful trimarans and Catamarans

It is pretty easy to build a boat when you are just copying what everyone else does, using someone else's moulds and buying rigs and other components off the shelf. Takes a bit longer when you want to try new stuff.

Depending on your definition, I have built between 5 and 8 boats over 30', most of them to my own design. Plus I have helped build well over a hundred. I don't bother counting the ones under 30'.

 

rob

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Rob

 

please do not take it any other way than we are just having a bit of a laugh.

 

we aren't stupid and know you have heaps of really good ideas, and power to weight is the king and on that front you will be very hard to beat.

 

But we are allowed to speculate and a little humour at times can be good for the soul.

 

Had a bit of a rethink about your attitude, have you? Do you really think I am going to forget 12 months of your ignorant bullshit and play along with your current Mr Nice Guy image?

 

Eight posts and a rules search, but still no time to come up with a mast price? Doesn't look like time is the problem, must be laziness or fear.

 

1) You may think it is a 'bit of a laugh' abusing me and trying to destroy my business, I don't.

2) I never said you were stupid, just that you know nothing about harryproas and did not appear to want to learn anything. Nothing you have said since changes this opinion.

 

rob

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Now back to your first match racing scenario:

 

unfortunately for you the on the water jury has ruled against you and your sallyproa as you have not afforded Taeping reasonable room and opportunity to keep clear.

 

(By the way your smugness and over confidence has gone down badly with the International jury as well)

 

So you have to complete a penalty turn.

 

Rules are a 360 turn including 1 tack and one gybe.

 

So we know you don't do those, although I know you can.

 

anyway, rules are rules, so no shunting allowed.

 

I'm thinking as you complete your circle that the mainsheet is going to go around the mast.

So after completing the turn you are going to have to do another turn the other way to untangle it !

 

I have also noticed in your description of a shunt you have not allowed for turning on and off your nav lights.

 

You will need two sets of bow and stern, nav lights and you will need to hit a switch to turn the appropriate set on or off.

 

Maybe I was wrong about stupid. How many times do we have to tell you that a tack and a gybe are not a problem in a harryproa? (not a sally proa, ha ha ha)

Not content with finding rules to stop me, you are now inventing them (international juries taking smugness into account).

Thanks for the heads up on nav lights. No one had ever mentioned this before, nor your elegant solution. No one that is, except those who have ever thought about proas for more than a nano second.

rob

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On a more serious note I did ask Murray Jones (Alinghi) how much of their budget and time they used in investigating a Proa instead of a cat or a tri.

 

The answer was they did not view the Proa as a serious option.

 

I will speculate on just a few possible reasons why.

 

Think of a Tuna swimming in the water. Its body shape is very streamlined. Its far from symmetrical at both ends.

asking your hull and foils to go both ways through the water ,they simply cannot be as efficient.

 

Rig:

 

I don't like your rig.

The other AC boats have stays, I think there are some good reasons for those.

The super efficient BMW wing was held in place by stays and without them you wouldn't be able to raise and lower the rig.

 

They also have a mainsheet and traveller for leach control and to depower in gusts.

I don't see how you can sheet your sails as effectively.

 

The gennakers need a tight luff to work, and that will cause the tip of your mast to bend forward, so not sure how effective that will be.

I also note that they don't sheet their gennakers dead on the centreline at the back as you are going to have to. Seems like you will end up with less forward drive and more sideways drag.

 

I have a lot of respect for Murray Jones and the Alinghi design team. I publicly picked them to win the AC. However, the bottom line is that they lost because they did not pursue all their options. Says it all about them not considering proas. I forgot you worked for Murray. Is that why you went along to listen to him instead of coming to the club night?

 

You are wrong about double ended foils with minute aspect ratios such as hulls. Transoms only make sense when you are length limited.

 

Rocker is what makes them draggy. Harryproas have none. See the drag curves on the harryproa chat group, and compare them with yours or any other boats. Oops, can't do that, no other designers publish them. Same logic as Hallspars and prices. Hide the bad news until the advertising has suckered them in.

 

"You don't like my rig". I might be concerned if you had even the faintest idea what my rig was going to be.

 

If you can relate tuna to boat hulls (which by the way, operate in very different conditions), you should be able to make some sort of connection between aeroplane wings, masts, wires and drag.

 

Raising a stayless rig is very simple. Far simpler than a stayed one.

 

There are more ways of controlling the leech and depowering than using a mainsheet and traveller. The fact that you can't think of them, does not mean they don't exist. This was discussed at the talk.

 

I am not designing an AC boat, gennaker sheeting angles are not a concern. This was discussed at the talk.

 

rob

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I am actually really looking forward to seeing the Proa racing, in fact I just can't wait. It would be great to have a bunch of them sailing.

 

But for you to come away from a club night with 4 confirmed orders.

 

Mate you have done very well there.

 

A lot of people talk about it at club night but never actually go on to do anything about it, and we all know times out there are very tough

so even though some people may have the best of intentions in the world you may not get quite as many of them sailing as you wish.

 

Budgets:

Rob all your budgets and costs never allow for your time, you are only ever talking materials.

How can you compare those figures with others that include labour?

Your boat isn't costing $10k unless you will sell it to me for that much, then because you are building 4 you will have build them all for nothing with no way to cover your overheads.

 

I wish you would make up your mind about your enthusiasm for proa racing. Last year they were a joke that no one would want to sail and that would be beaten by a lead mine. Two days ago you were dreaming up rules to ban them. Today, you want it to happen. Tomorrow, who knows?

 

I did not say I got 4 orders from the meeting. I got very little from the meeting apart from a few disbelieving giggles from the back corner. Between 40 and 50 polite people very interested in what I was doing. No abuse, Samin too scared to call me a fuckwit to my face, no one telling me I was cuckoo and that my boats are a joke. Certainly no one abusing me so they could get a cheap laugh. I suspect if any of them had done any of this, the rest of the group would have asked them to shut up or leave.

 

If things are rough for you, it is probably more to do with your attitude to pricing and advertising than "the times". I am finding increasing interest in boats that are light, fast, quick and easy to build and sail that don't cost much.

 

I always differentiate between labour and materials. See if you can misconstrue this: We are building a 15m harryproa, hulls, decks, cockpit, internal fitout, beams and rudders for $AUS25,000 for a german client. The materials in this are $AUS10,000. The labour, profits and overheads are the rest. Is that clear?

 

rob

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Rob

 

It may not come across that we all do wish you well, we are all keen to see more multi's out racing. And a budget version of a 50 footer will be an awesome sight and if it consistently beats Taeping that is fantastic.

 

I really do wish you all the best.

 

I have never said my boat will beat Taeping. Sendit proposed a race to test speed and maneuverability, I suggested a course and rules that would do this. He declined. Maybe you would like to bring the eggshell out and have a go on the same course, under the same rules? You would then learn about proas without having to read anything.

Thank you for your best wishes. If you were to go through all your proa posts and either delete them or apologise for being abusive/ignorant/derogatory your concern would be a bit more believable. If you were to actually read about and make an effort to understand what is going on before bagging it, it might help your attempt at reimaging yourself as well.

Don't forget the mast quote. Not much point being Mr Nice Guy if you still have the image of working for a company that is scared to publish prices.

Still curious as to why you said I would not like to meet you. If I was paranoid, I might think it was a threat. Maybe Mr Nice Guy slipped up there as well.

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Mr Wolf,

 

have you not got a boat to be fixing ? you seem to be spending way to much time on these forums!

 

I believe you once told me that I didn't have any posting rights untill my boat was sailing again...... I think the same should apply for you ;)

 

.....I did like the bit about the mainsheet getting wrapped up around the mast though :)

 

Think about it and you will see that, like so much of Tim's proa information, it may be amusing, but it doesn't actually happen.

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