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Rob Denney at tthe clubnight


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wow. what a read.

 

Wolfy and send it, pity you weren't at the club night, and had the opportunity for some face to face discussion with Rob. Hope he doesn't think we are all that close minded and afraid of new things. You guys don't come across well.

 

Samin, you saw the photos of the boat being built? Did you publish an expected finished date for your boat, and if so, reckon you will meet it? :wink:

 

its hard to argue with the power to weight ratio that rob is talking about, tied in with the long waterline

 

i really really hope there are some race results sometime in the next few years, in whichever country, against whatever boats. until then the talk of speeds and manouverabiity will remain contentious. Good luck Rob

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Rob

 

No where have I said i will declined your invite to race! I would love to come and race in aus but as I said it is not my boat to make that call.

 

below is a diagram. Can you please explain how a shunt is quicker when you

a) have to sail more distance than a conventional tack and

B) actually come to a complete stop.

 

we never stop in a tack. granted we slow quite considerably but we are always moving forward.

Draft1.pdf

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Can I please take your 50' Proa for a sail, PLEASE Rob.

 

I would love to sail it for you in this years Coastal if the trial sail pans out.

 

I have checked my previous posts in fairness to you and feel in the main part there is little personal attack

and some very useful information there.Some of the initial "doubt" is actually directed at claims by David that there would be a 700kg, 50 foot proa in last years coastal that was going to spank every one.

 

I expected you would not like to meet me because I am very loud when I disagree with someone and can often times be unconcionably rude.

It would also be highly inappropriate to attend your talk with the intention of bagging your ideas all the way through (as some people seemed to expect me to do).

 

So how about it Rob, can I take her for a sail. (I freely admit I will need lessons on shunting).

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About the build costs. You must be grabbing numbers from mid air. When i built my 12 ft skiff 7 years ago the foam and carbon was $6500 nzd and mould fee of $600. the resin was sponsored and everything was moulded or template cut from flat sheet. I built it in 8 week after work 5 until midnight most nights. I would not call myself a have a go boat builder and had excellent guidance on building. the hull was built to a ready to paint finish. paint was another $200 plus rum and no foils or rudder boxes or fitting yet.

 

I cannot see wher you get you figures they just don't stack up. I know you are using ply which is cheaper and any decent boat builder would be charging $70nzd an hour which make your build time 214 hours. either you hours are wrong or you are getting a pretty rough boat.

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See, I'm not an engineer nor am I an accountant so I have no Idea what the hell that PDF is about???? :?:

 

Is this based on some factual information or just a guess at taking and shunting angles?

does wind strength alter these doodles?

or are you just making a shunt of yourself???

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This is an "old days" story when the multihull crowd was "liberal" and "open" and even "very enthusiastic" to mutlihull developments ... but fargo trucking hell, how did this cabal of mouthy, right wingers infiltrate the multihull group? Anyway, the ignorant, strutting bunch with the big Texan hats have now found said hats full of bullet holes shot by Rob Denney. You turkeys are a national disgrace - one hopes it has not become international .,.. but with the internet, maybe that is too late.

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Talk is so cheap in the age of the internet.

 

If rob would just refer to his boats as cruisers then all would be forgiven....but my god, he has been flogging this light weight racer now for so long that people have understandably got a bit sick of it.

 

I think you will find that multihull owners are still very open to new ideas, and maybe this thread has not really shown the openess of most owners to new ideas in real life.

 

I suggest we all shut up untill the 500kg 50ft racer turns up.

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Hi Rob I have posted the info you were asking about in my thread. Hope it is of some interest.

 

I wasnt trying to infer I think you'r a f@#$wit in my prevous post, just trying to explain to a bystander why other people do.

 

I have dredged up some info from the thread last year, hope you dont mind.

 

Following are some numbers from the weight spreadsheet for my boat. Apart from the windward hull, it has all been engineered so I am confident the component weights are correct.

 

Lee hull:

Surface area hull, deck and bulkheads, overlaps and tabbing 40 sq m

Base laminate weight, 3.5 kgs/sq m

Additional stiffening and local beefing up for mast bearings 30 kgs

Paint and bog 10

 

Lee hull weight: 180 kgs

 

Windward hull:

Surface area incl deck, bulkheads, overlaps and tabbing 54 sq m (Dave's is 25 sq m)

Laminate weight 3.5 kgs/sqm

Paint and bog 11

 

ww hull weight: 200 kgs

 

Beams 7.5m x 200mm dia tubes, including reinforcing at the hulls 18 kgs each = 36 kgs

 

Rudders, rudder mounts, tillers and extensions: 20 kgs each = 40 kgs

 

Mast and boom: ~80 kgs (non telescoping one will be 20-30 less)

 

Sail, tramp, rigging, cleats and blocks: ~45 kgs

 

Ready to sail: 581 kgs

 

Safety gear for solo Transpac which I would like to do next year: 180 kgs

 

My 1st question is, is there any reason someone couldnt build a Proa with 2x "lee hull"

(50ft long) with the rig on stbd hull? keep all the beams, mast hull lamenate hull design etc the same but instead of shunting, tack? on sbdt tack the weight of the rig would give the boat slightly more righting moment so be faster, which is good because you start on sbd tack?

 

The only disadvantage I can see would be that there would be more wetted surface? as long as it was powered up enough to fly the WW hull this would be ok.

 

In theory this config should be as fast as a proa as the righting moment and weight, drag etc is all the same?

 

2nd question is, what would be faster?

 

a. A proa with a "whachyamacallit" rig (sorry cant remember the name used to be called freedom rig)

 

b. A proa with a "conventional" fully stay'd carbon rotating wing mast (say 400mm chord) with a normal boom, traveller, diamond stays, forstay with genoa, furling reacher and masthead and fractional gennaker?

 

(forgetting the fact that its not possible because the chain plates etc arent there)

 

My bet is b. Sure it would cost way more but for a given boat it has to be faster.

 

My conclusion is a proa vs Cat or Tri the same length will be slower.

however a Proa worth the same amount of hours/money as the Cat or Tri could be faster, particuarly on a reach.

 

Fundamental problems are:

 

a. people generally look at boats in terms of length not how much they cost so 50ft proa looks stupid being beaten by a 35ft cat.

 

b. The HarryProa rig simply wont be fast either upwind or downwind. On a reach it will be great but how well does a windsurfer go vmg upwind or downwind? without a gennaker downwind it will be painfully slow. Even BMW oracle Tri had an "extra" sail down wind.

 

c. Shunting may be the same speed as a tack but it must be very slow Gybe-shunting! going from 23 knots to zero and back to 23 knots vs the cat which goes from 23 knots down to 12 back to 23knots... thats gotta be 100m difference?

 

d. you may not think shunting is an issue but general public want to be able to race, a race boat. And most racing is "around the bouys" one bad gybe will lose you a place, one good gybe-shunt would lose you 5 places, and in Auckland Harbour in particular you might do 10+ gybes in a harbour race as the channel is pretty small.

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Clipper, Booboo. Ta. Good to know it was worth the time. Lets hope the outbreak of goodwill lasts longer than it did last time.

 

Sendit,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Look forward to the race if I get over there. Looking forward to seeing you do 5 tacks in half a mile on your own. Happy to waive the Aus leg.

 

I never said I can shunt faster than a fully crewed conventional boat. If I did, please let me know so I can correct it. What I did say is that it may be possible to shunt with better vmg than a tacking boat. Especially shorthanded.

 

Your diagram is correct, for conventional shunting. When racing, I do it a bit different. I luff head to wind until the boat almost stops, then rotate the rudders, luff hard, sheet in and move weight forward. The boat spins through 315 degrees. Worked well in my 7.5 against the Perth Hobie 16's and Tornados. No idea how well it will work in the 15, one of the interesting things to learn. The rudders are proportionately closer to the centre but the hulls float higher.

 

Notice how friendly the answer is when you _ask_ about something you don't understand.

 

Tim,

Not sure I would entrust my boat to someone with a self control problem, but get your boat patched up and I might consider a swap in a warm up race for the CC. Regardless, if you stop mouthing off about things you don't understand, I will be happy to take you for a sail and show you it is possible to sail without spending a fortune and requiring a bunch of crew.

 

Recheck your posts. Use 'search' and enter proas, mrwolf and any of cuckoo, rubbish, joke, won't work, etc. I will believe your "in fairness to you" comment when these are removed or apologised for.

 

Also check Dave's post. He had a potential boat if a potential sponsor came through. You advised him not to as it was impossible to build a 15m at 500 kgs. He then said there was a maybe boat, which never happened as I had other things to tend to.

 

You are correct that it was inappropriate to bag my ideas without knowing what they were, both at the talk and on this forum. Take the time to find out what I am doing and I would love to discuss it with you.

 

Sendit again

You seem to have mastered Tim and Samin's ability to read something and understand what you want, rather than what is written. I am not using ply, there is no carbon in the hulls or beam, (although I am thinking of changing the single 80 kg glass beam for 2 x 20 kg carbon ones), and the client is not getting a rough boat.

 

1) Have a look at the Solitarry costs spreadsheet in the Files section of the chat group at http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/harryproa/ Tell me specifically which costs you think are grabbed from mid air.

2) Read through the proa thread from last year. Ignore all the loud rude comments and you will see how the boat was built. No moulds, nothing to align, virtually no fairing, very little wet resin, apart from fixing stuff ups. Very little in common with your skiff.

 

Amongst a whole lot of interesting stuff, you will learn that my boat took 300 hours, but we learnt a lot of tricks to make it quicker, which we have passed on to the client. The $25,000 labour, overheads and profit is based on $Aus60/$NZ75 per hour.

 

Notice how unfriendly the answer is when you _tell_ me about something you don't understand.

 

If you are Russell, I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the pub!

 

Offender, it is the tracks of a tacking boat and a shunting boat. It assumes both boats are similar speeds and pointing ability. Wind strength won't alter them much, except that when the waves get big, the tacker might get into irons occasionally.

 

Coxcreek: Probably too late.

I sent you an email after the talk. Did you get it?

 

Rodboy: If you are sick of it, why do you read it?

 

Some people have actually learnt a bit about building low cost, fast, lightweight boats from my "flogging". I have also learnt a lot from people (not on this forum!) who thought about it and made suggestions. That, I believe, is what "discussion forums" are for? If we were to wait until it is launched, none of this cross fertilisation would have occurred.

 

If there were not so many people spouting stuff about proas which is entirely figments of their imagination, I would not have to spend time refuting them. Incidentally, this thread is one of the more viewed threads in the multihull section so either people are tuning in to proas, or (more likely) they don't give a toss about boats, just like watching people rip into each other. Bit pathetic, really.

 

Samin, I haven't got time for explaining yet again what I told you last year. Maybe if I get some spare time in the US.

 

I'm not trying to infer I think you're not worth replying to, just trying to explain to a bystander why other people do.

 

rob

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Perhaps Rob is a cuckoo? who am I to judge but there is Something to think about.

If it hadn't been for a couple of raving lunatic cuckoos (popular opinion of the day) maybe none of us would be sailing the well developed Multihulls of today.

 

I refer of course to Arthur Piver and James Wharram. Arthur made bold statements about the speed and cheap cost of his designs and inspired hundreds of builders. As people became confident with the concept they developed their own ideas to what we have today.

 

James had naked women, what an inspiration! Rob, where the hell are the naked women?

 

so I wonder where Robs designs will have led us when we look back in forty years time.

 

Bring on the naked women :D

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If there were not so many people spouting stuff about proas which is entirely figments of their imagination

 

cough cough

 

500kg 50ft racing proa ??

 

cough cough.

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Samin, I haven't got time for explaining yet again what I told you last year. Maybe if I get some spare time in the US.

 

rob

 

I didnt think you'd break so easy Rob :D I thought it would take at least another 4 or 5 posts, I had them all lined up....

 

just so you know we have far longer and more abusive conversations around here about the Cat vs Tri debate so dont take anything too personally :wink:

 

I'm not trying to infer I think you're not worth replying to, just trying to explain to a bystander why other people do.

 

rob

 

Good to see you've got a sense of humor too, you'l need it in NZ and you certainly showed it at your talk.

 

I think the HarryProa concept and some of your build techniques are very clever, and could certainly give Cats and Tris a run for there money, so let get this thing in the water,

Good Luck :thumbup:

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My impression of Rob Denney from his various online postings, here and on other forums (where he get the same response) is someone who really believes in his ideas but bugs you just like door to door bible basher who just won't go away.

What you are saying could be correct, but it's all talk and no action. (I know you will come back listing this and that, but half of it is just talk)

 

I assume the main reason you can claim to build so light is the unstayed mast. Therefore a 50ft unstayed tri should be able to be built for say 800kg. if not why not?

 

http://www.harryproa.com/SoloTranspac/SoloTranspac_1.htm

This great lightweight 50ft proa was designed and was going to be built for 2008 singlehanded transpac. So 300 hours of work over the last 3 to 4 years seems a little slow.

 

While the proa concept looks very interesting, and half a boat with half the weight and the same power should be faster, but we are still waiting to see the race results. When we do, then you will start converting us- but until then

Rob, all you have to do is to deliver on some of your promises.

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Hi Rob I have posted the info you were asking about in my thread. Hope it is of some interest.

What is interesting is that it weighs about 3 kgs per sq m (or would if it was infused rather than hand laid) and this is the skin weight that I was given a hard time about last year by Tim C and other experts for a boat which weighs half as much.

 

Can you also let us know the hours, the build time and the cost so far? And when it will be sailing?

 

What is amazing is that last year, you were one of the crowd that said i didn't have a clue about boats or building, 2 weeks ago you were begging me to tell you I wasn't building my boat the way you thought I should, 2 days ago you were telling me I was a fuckwit, and today you are asking me for building advice! I am not saying you are arrogant, just telling you why people might think you are.

 

I wasnt trying to infer I think you'r a f@#$wit in my prevous post, just trying to explain to a bystander why other people do.

 

Would not have believed it possible, but this is a weaker cop out than Tim's.

 

I have dredged up some info from the thread last year, hope you dont mind.

Not at all, although you don't refer to it, so why bother.

 

My 1st question is, is there any reason someone couldnt build a Proa with 2x "lee hull" (50ft long) with the rig on stbd hull? keep all the beams, mast hull lamenate hull design etc the same but instead of shunting, tack? on sbdt tack the weight of the rig would give the boat slightly more righting moment so be faster, which is good because you start on sbd tack?

 

The only disadvantage I can see would be that there would be more wetted surface? as long as it was powered up enough to fly the WW hull this would be ok. In theory this config should be as fast as a proa as the righting moment and weight, drag etc is all the same?

 

It will be heavier, more expensive, have more windage and wetted surface, less righting moment (weight will be split between both hulls) and more load on the beams. Let me know which ones of these need more explaining. It is arguably a better layout than a standard catamaran, but not as good as a proa.

 

 

2nd question is, what would be faster?

a. A proa with a "whachyamacallit" rig (sorry cant remember the name used to be called freedom rig)

b. A proa with a "conventional" fully stay'd carbon rotating wing mast (say 400mm chord) with a normal boom, traveller, diamond stays, forstay with genoa, furling reacher and masthead and fractional gennaker?(forgetting the fact that its not possible because the chain plates etc arent there)

My bet is b. Sure it would cost way more but for a given boat it has to be faster. My conclusion is a proa vs Cat or Tri the same length will be slower. however a Proa worth the same amount of hours/money as the Cat or Tri could be faster, particuarly on a reach.

 

What is your point? Anyone can spend money to go fast? I agree.

Or that cruisers have been suckered into thinking that everything on a race boat should be on their's? I agree again.

 

The ballestron rig is the simplest rig available for cruisers. Very little to go wrong, automatic depowering, no extras required, light sheet loads, minimal maintenance and almost no deck gear. I am not using it on my race boat.

 

You compare two proas and conclude a small cat will be faster! Not saying that you are totally lacking the power of logical thought, just pointing out why bystanders might think so.

 

As i said at the talk, and many times before and since, my race boat is not having a ballestron rig. Nor is it having the other rig you describe.

 

Fundamental problems are:

a. people generally look at boats in terms of length not how much they cost so 50ft proa looks stupid being beaten by a 35ft cat.

 

You might look at length before cost. The people I want to deal with think of cost first.

 

You have given absolutely no reasons why a 35'ter would beat a proa. Try comparing the following speed producing factors: loa, weight, windage, sail, wetted surface, mast height, righting moment, hull and appendage drag. You know, as in actually writing them down and seeing which boat looks quicker.

 

b. The HarryProa rig simply wont be fast either upwind or downwind. On a reach it will be great but how well does a windsurfer go vmg upwind or downwind? without a gennaker downwind it will be painfully slow. Even BMW oracle Tri had an "extra" sail down wind.

 

(Yawn) I am not using the cruising harryproa rig (ballestron). I am trying a telescoping wing mast with a batten controlled mainsail. Windsurfers beat 18 footers downwind in a breeze, A class cats beat them in the light, C class cats beat them all the time. Extras are expensive, heavy (on a light boat, especially if you need extra crew for them) and are a similar approach to the speed problem as throwing money at it. I prefer to apply efficiency rather than brute force.

 

c. Shunting may be the same speed as a tack but it must be very slow Gybe-shunting! going from 23 knots to zero and back to 23 knots vs the cat which goes from 23 knots down to 12 back to 23knots... thats gotta be 100m difference?

 

At last, something correct and relevant. As I said last year, it is a big negative of racing proas. I have 3 options.

I can try and figure out ways to improve it.

I can see if I can make the boat fast enough to make up for it.

I can go out and spend 6 times as much on a boat the same as everyone else's. I will try the first 2. You can either keep pointing this out, or try to think up ways to make it quicker.

 

d. you may not think shunting is an issue but general public want to be able to race, a race boat. And most racing is "around the bouys" one bad gybe will lose you a place, one good gybe-shunt would lose you 5 places, and in Auckland Harbour in particular you might do 10+ gybes in a harbour race as the channel is pretty small.

 

Don't think I ever said shunting is not an issue. Making it faster is one of the biggest (and funnest) parts of proa sailing.

 

If it takes you 10 gybes to get down the harbour, you are probably better off getting a big running spinnaker and sailing near square. I am hoping the 15 will be as proportionally quick as the 7.5 which could get to within 30 degrees of ddw wildthing sailing on it's apparent wind in a breeze. With the 16m high rig and Transpac safety gear, the 15 has a Bruce number of 2.1 so I think it will get downhill fairly well. With the 22m mast height option (still deciding which to build), the BN is 2.5.

 

Is the race you challenged me too still on?

 

Offender,

I'm not in those guy's class, but thanks for the nice words. Does make you think though. What was the last sailing multihull innovation to come out of NZ? I can't think of anything since Sundreamers construction and the GBE that was not just an example of throwing more money at the boats to add the latest and greatest gadget or copy an overseas trend. This is a rhetorical question. Any answers, start a new thread.

 

Rod boy,

Do you agree with the following weights which are for components I have already built?

Completed lee hull, including joins for the three sections, kick up rudder mounts and mast bearings 146 kgs,

Completed ww hull incl bunks, galley, cockpit and windows 120 kgs,

Completed beam incl staunchions 70 kgs.

Rudders 30 kgs

total ex rig: 366 kgs

 

If the answer is Yes, can you envisage a rig, tramp and a few other bits and pieces weighing less than 134 kgs to give a 500 kg boat?

If the answer is No, you are accusing me of lying, and there is nothing more to say until you heed your last sentence from your previous post.

Hope your cough gets better.

 

Samin again: Better. Thanks. Look forward to the other 4 or 5 posts, but please, do some homework or ask me some questions before you start pouring the vitriol again.

 

Re your boat now that we are on the same wavelength: You will get a stiffer, lighter laminate if you use 200 cloth either side of the ply rather than just 450 on the exterior. Won't be as bullet proof, but if you are hitting something that hard, it won't make much difference.

 

Bunk laminate depends on unsupported area. Lightest will be some offcuts of nomex with 100 gsm carbon (or 200 glass) bagged each side. Try Cooksons. Ask High Mod who is using nomex and ask if they have any offcuts you can use. The stuff is easy enough to laminate on a table and joins don't add much weight. Could also use the paper honeycomb from ATL, or make your own from door interiors (bit sticky). 1mm ply on top of extruded (much tougher than blown) Styrofoam, with 200 underneath is also a good option, if you can get the ply cheaply. If you are really keen, get some balsa and drill holes in it to make a honeycomb.

 

No boat stuff from here on, feel free to ignore the rest of this post

Pacice,

 

No idea who you are, but if you don't like what I write, or think you have heard it all before, why do you read it? And do you really think your post was more interesting or relevant than those you are denigrating? Or that anyone really cares about the opinions of someone who doesn't have the balls to sign his name?

 

6 prototypes between 5 and 12m built by me, 40+ proas to my design building or sailing, production 5m being built in China, 7 Hobarts, 50,000+ offshore miles, sailing multis for 45 years, 2xUDC. Anything more than this about me or proas is "all talk"; ignore it if you don't want to know about or discuss ideas and possibilities.

 

The reasons I build so light are on the harryproa yahoo chat group. Read that before you spout off about things you know nothing about. The unstayed mast is part of it, but would save little or no weight on a racing tri. Weight saving is about reversing the spiral that leads to more rm, more sa and more weight. You need to do more than just copy one feature off a light boat to reverse this spiral.

 

This is the second 15m shorthanded boat I have started in the last 3 years. When you have designed and built anything remotely as unique and launched it on time, weight and budget, your criticism will carry some weight.

 

I don't "have to do" anything. Especially not for an unimaginative nonentity like you. I am building this boat for me. If you want to know about new and different things, you may be interested. If you have an ounce of imagination, you may be making suggestions to improve it. If you just like seeing your name in print, you will be criticising my launch date.

 

rob

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Guest Dry Reach

Great debate and what is needed to push the envelope inorder to progress and make multi's faster and easier to sail faster (the ultimate aim of all this dialouge).

 

but If i was going to listen to anyone about the fastest / best Tri, Cat, proa design and concept i would probably ignore all the above "hot Air" and all the designers of the past(tennant, piver, Wharram) and speak with the gurus of multi's and the people who set the standards and most of the records!...

 

 

...the French!

 

After all, the best and fastest design is what matters and building it to budget is the next consideration.

 

unless of course you are building second rate boats to have as an excuse for not performing (or to leave on a mooring to admire. like a lot of them)

 

imho

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If there were not so many people spouting stuff about proas which is entirely figments of their imagination

 

cough cough

 

500kg 50ft racing proa ??

 

cough cough.

 

Cough cough

 

 

Tell us why not?

 

Cough cough

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After all, the best and fastest design is what matters and building it to budget is the next consideration.

 

 

imho

 

 

Couldn't disagree more.

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Guest Dry Reach

 

After all, the best and fastest design is what matters and building it to budget is the next consideration.

 

 

imho

 

 

Couldn't disagree more.

 

 

depends on budget.

but if your planning to build say a 30' tri to whip arse then why choose a slow design for your budget when you can have a fast design?

 

After all the difference in material (using the same materials for both designs) between a 30' dog and a 30' speed machine is next to nothing. in fact the faster boat would probably use less material. But the dog will be slower!

 

there are many people out there who have built one off mavericks that do not perform! yet for the same price they could have built a same sized fast boat.

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