Box Rules

[Guest]

Is there a need or a desire for something like a simple 30ft Box Rule?

 

Thoughts -

- Basic box with a few attached limitations and/or restrictions to keep it tidy and minimise arms races.

- Room for the kiwi fiddling

- bigger fleet of similar boats to race in

- 30ft is cheap........ in comparison with boats that aren't

- None of the class wankery that goes on with either supplier scams or boats in supposed 'OD' yet can be clearly seen using gear specifically outlawed by their class rules.

- Maybe spark some innovation

 

Just a thought as the chances of NZ getting a new 'class' up and rocking is unlikely due a few assorted reasons. So why knot investigate making something from what we have floating work a little better for the way we like to play with our toys.

 

Also you could build a new 30 for cheap and if you did you'd have a like sized fleet to drop right into.

[bene_sails 0]

GP26

[Guest]

Now that is a great idea KM.

 

With most of the class boats being basterdized why not have one division for all 30 footers.

 

Working a rule that encompasses all classes would be easy enough and should reduce cost for all except those that wish to Turbo outside the rule in order to beat bigger boats in other non box class races.

 

Would make the fleets bigger and racing more interesting.

 

Call it a class30 and have a world champs/cup.

[SloopJohnB 323]

something like this?

http://www.mills-design.com/boats/archives/open30/

http://www.vgyd.com/Open30.html

[Guest]

 

Shall we transferred this thread to the mini650 thread?

 

I think KM means using existing boats as opposed to a new class.

 

Knowing the other threads direction something new will NEVER work.

 

That's why this is a good idea.

[Kiteroa 8]

What happened to the Supreme 30 Hotrod class? There was a good fleet back in 2007.

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

Good idea .This will encompass many boats and many upgreaded boats a cheap arena .

[Guest]

 

Shall we transferred this thread to the mini650 thread?

 

I think KM means using existing boats as opposed to a new class.

 

Knowing the other threads direction something new will NEVER work.

 

That's why this is a good idea.

Exactly what JP said, almost down to the letter. {as KM takes a 'bugger me who would have expected that' moment }

 

We have a fleet many of which are orphans, a little tired maybe, just knot feeling the love. Have a Box Rule and those boats have a place they can be tickled and put to better racing. All in the Kiwi No8 way of doing things i.e. fiddling bastards.

 

If we can't get 6 people to agree to pretty much one 21fter what's the chances of getting a bigger new 30ft fleet happening, zip, none, nada, f*ck all. A GP26 or new boat will automatically mean 10's if knot 100's of 1000's of K's. An existing boat could hop into a box rule tomorrow for maybe nothing, maybe a few K, maybe lots of K if the owner wants to. That is a major cost difference, and what I believe by far is the current reason we won't get many new Class for the foreseeable future.

 

As a FYI, that very thing I'm suggesting is happening right now anyway but it is to be limited as to what boats can play in it. It was suggested to me by 2 boats that currently won't be allowed to play in that new Rule why knot open it up to all 30fters?

 

Hence the question being asked.

 

What happened to the Supreme 30 Hotrod class? There was a good fleet back in 2007.

A good question.

 

Combine those boats with the fleet changing now and there's a potential 30 boat starting fleet already. Total fleet cost to get into this box rule = less than one new 26fter.

[Kiteroa 8]

For the 30's, there probably should be a split into fixed and movable ballast fleets, as there's huge performance gap between the likes of ross 930's and Tongue Twister etc.

 

The class fell apart about the same time Positive Touch went to Neumea. Steve & co were the driving force behind the class.

[Guest]

the s30 was a great idea and seemed to work for all of those involved.

 

But like all things of this nature it requires someone to administer it. Steve A did a great job at getting it up and running but with no following support like most nz things ..........

[Kiteroa 8]

I would have taken over the admin side of things. Although I wasn't in the country when it needed someone. We should kick it off again. It was a good concept.

[markm 30]

Much merit in the idea KM, passing thoughts :

 

First, need to establish the objective, eg from your post, increase participation amongst similar style boats. Pays to have only one objective as typically more than one can cause some conflict. My view is it's better to do one objective well than several less well. I make the comment because your objective drives your box rule. For example, a 2-handed development box would look quite different from say a box that uses the modified 930s as its core.

 

Suspect you need to aim your box primarily at the existing fleet. Whilst 30ft is certainly somewhat cheaper than 40 and whilst more new boats have been splashed in that size in the last decade than you'd think, nonetheless it's probably not going to happen if you don't have a good base.

 

Accepted a 'like boats participating' type objective, think you need a core of 10 boats that are pretty committed to the idea. Watching the 930s from the sidelines and not intending to be critical at all, it seems that the fleet size is nearly but not quite there to have a good division. Certainly you get six or seven boats often enough, occasionally one or two more and sometimes less. My impression is for it to work, each boat needs to be out knowing they'll have at least three others they're seriously racing each race on line. My impression is the 930s do break into a fast and a less fast group (not necessarily reflecting the level of mod) with around 3 mins an hour between the groups. Assuming this was your base, think you're wise to want to expand the numbers a little as I think it's just below the level to be sustainable.

 

Think I can comment on the earlier 30 group and it's demise as I was doing a chunk of the cat herding post Steve A. At the end of the day, whilst we could get half a dozen boats out regularly, the differential in performance amongst the boats was such that each boat really only had one or two others to race. Most could get better racing in general club divisions albeit different general divisions (and clubs) and by racing typically larger, sometimes much larger boats.

 

At the end of the day, if your choice is to race in a 30 div with a couple of close competitors or in a general div against half a dozen, most will opt (rightly) for the latter.

 

You can certainly get more boats for specific events, eg CC, but pretty hard to have a sense of class and class momentum with one or two events a year.

 

KM, be interested to know what you're thinking for a box? It kind of has to be loose enough to get boat numbers but tight enough to avoid the need for handicapping, not such an easy call. The earlier group was very loosely based on the Aus super 30, good for numbers but racing say a M32 against a class R930 on line isn't really a happening thing.

[Guest]

Well my two cents worth.

 

I don't believe making a box rule to suit old slow shitters is the way to go. you would be far better coming up with a handicap system exclusive to 30 foot boats. a rule doesn't encourage development of slow boats at all. at the end of the day a slow boat in a box rule is still a slow boat.

 

If you create a box rule you must be racing for line so the fastest boats still reap the rewards. Ok so you say you are going to run a handicap within the rule, so what is the point of having a rule. My argument is clearly evident in the 8.5's. there are two or three boats optimised to the rule and the rest are making up the numbers. they should be racing for line and not have a handicap system. at the end of the day if they have to handicap boats within the rule it is not really a fair rule bringing close competitive racing among supposedly similar boats.

[SloopJohnB 323]

Something like the "Sydney Super 30's"

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index. ... pic=139021

[all fired up 6]

Also I think the Mt Gay 30 is a box rule design. FnG would be the person to comment on this. I believe Fun'n'Games is a Mt Gay 30 design. She is much faster than a 930 tho.

 

Maybe the place to start would be with the 930 box rule almost at finalisation and then look at other 30ftrs that would possibly fit in. We should finish the 930 Box tho and if this idea flows the 930's would become a subset of the new 30 ft Box.

 

Could need a bit of tweaking to the 930 Box but with everyone here adding their input it could be done.

 

So who is gunna do it then?

a.f.u

[Kiteroa 8]

the 930 would be a good place to start. Although you'd want to make the box a bit wider or no one else will fit through the narrow gap!

[TimW 1]

So long as your box is 10.6m long x 8m widex 15 metres tall with a minimum weight of 1500 kg all up then count me in.

[Kiteroa 8]

Sorry Tim you can't play. There's a minimum stability requirement of 110deg so the rest of us can continue get insurance

[Megwyn 2]

Sorry Tim you can't play. There's a minimum stability requirement of 110deg so the rest of us can continue get insurance

 

Trimarans are most stable at 180 degrees, or so I have been informed.

[Guest]

KM, be interested to know what you're thinking for a box? It kind of has to be loose enough to get boat numbers but tight enough to avoid the need for handicapping, not such an easy call. The earlier group was very loosely based on the Aus super 30, good for numbers but racing say a M32 against a class R930 on line isn't really a happening thing.

A work in progress I'd say fella. I obviously know what the 930's are doing and that would encompass many others with some tweaking to the beam, as WT correctly noted.

 

I can't see how you could do one and have no handicapping though.

 

I think the gist is more to gather like sized boats and give them a fleet to sail together in while leaving the 'rule' with room for people to fiddle with their toys a bit. I don't see the rule allowing stuff like canters, I do see the rule having a 'cruising' component to make sure we don't end up with one dimensional boats.