Handicaps

[markm 30]

At the risk of ruining perfectly good conspiracy theories :

 

http://phrf.yachtingnz.org.nz/BoatSearc ... rchResults

 

The results are a bit behind at the moment which you can pretty much pin on me. It's a holiday task to follow up on what results need to go in and track down some duplication on racing that's been submitted multiple times.

[PaulR 3]

Thanks Mark. Your link does work and I can get our PHRF data.

 

However if I use the YNZ home page > racing > Boat search

 

all I still get is boat name and sail number on a "new" looking page but no access to PHRF data.

[ballystick 72]

The use of Racetrack for events such as the Akld-Tga may not represent a true reflection of yacht and crew performances. Racetracks results are taken from club results I think, in Tauranga we sail in a sandbank infested tidal paddling pool. Shallow draft yachts excel and so do spinnakers, local knowledge and crew work is supreme. Compare this to a coastal or open water race where gennakers and downwind flyers use straightline speed and things are quite different. I don't know the solution.

[Atom Ant 0]

The use of Racetrack for events such as the Akld-Tga may not represent a true reflection of yacht and crew performances. Racetracks results are taken from club results I think, in Tauranga we sail in a sandbank infested tidal paddling pool. Shallow draft yachts excel and so do spinnakers, local knowledge and crew work is supreme. Compare this to a coastal or open water race where gennakers and downwind flyers use straightline speed and things are quite different. I don't know the solution.

Class racing. There, easy!

[ballystick 72]

Yes, that's the solution.

[ballystick 72]

I am currently contacting past entrants in the Akld-Tga races to get an idea of which handicap system they prefer - Racetrack or PHRF. There are quite a few invalid email address's so if you haven't received an email please PM me with your preference or ideas - thanks, Andy

 

Also, some are not happy with either so who has another suggestion. One such as Willow's, for example.

 

Most of our club members I have contacted want to support YNZ and their organisation, but the handicap situation is a hot topic for sure!!!

[drbob 0]

Something some of us at RPNYC have been working on, and AFAIK the current policy

Developed in conjunction with the modelling and establishment of Yachtsys Method E

 

HANDICAP REVIEW PROCESS

Aims:

• To create a situation where any competitor who sails well can realistically win any race.

• To promote excellence by encouraging competitors to strive to improve their performance from race to race.

To do this we will:

• use a mathematical system with the least amount of human intervention to appropriately adjust a competitor's handicap based on the competitor's measure performance trend, and

• when we intervene we will do so fairly, consistently, without interest and transparently.

Competitors will:

• make a genuine effort in every race an not seek to earn or effect a handicap that is not a true and fair reflection of the performance potential of the boat and crew, and

• make the necessary disclosure where there has been or may be a material change in the boat or its crew.

Handicap recalculation:

Here are the rules we agreed for handicap recalculation, review and manual intervention:

1. Handicaps will be recalculated after every race except where:

a) A boat's handicap will not be recalculated after a race if her performance in the race exceeded the performance exclusion limit.

No competitor's handicap will be updated after a race when fewer than 50% of the competitors that started the race finished.

c) No competitor's handicap will be updated after a race when fewer than four competitors finish the race.

d) The Handicap Committee believes updating handicaps is inappropriate.

[Note]

2. If the Race Officer believes it inappropriate to update handicaps after a race, he/she shall not update the handicaps and refer the matter to the Handicap Committee for review.

[Note]

Reviewing and adjusting a competitor's handicap:

3. The Handicap Committee must review a competitor's handicap(s) when:

a) Any competitor makes a written request to the HC for a review

Once, when the competitor is new to the section (e.g. Division) to which it is assigned and after a minimum of two races have been completed by that competitor in that section

c) Once, when the Handicap Committee is aware of material changes to the boat or its crew and on after a minimum of two races have been completed by the competitor in that configuration.

4. The Handicap Committee may intervene to manually adjust a competitor's handicap(s) when any analysis of the handicaps of competitors in general or any other handicap review indicates that individual competitor(s) handicaps are unfair.

[Guest]

where is a like button? drbob, well done

[Guest]

The use of Racetrack for events such as the Akld-Tga may not represent a true reflection of yacht and crew performances. Racetracks results are taken from club results I think, in Tauranga we sail in a sandbank infested tidal paddling pool. Shallow draft yachts excel and so do spinnakers, local knowledge and crew work is supreme. Compare this to a coastal or open water race where gennakers and downwind flyers use straightline speed and things are quite different. I don't know the solution.

Class racing. There, easy!

 

What class is Adam Ant? Colson 950?

[Rhys 0]

DrBob

 

I like too. This is the first time I’ve ever seen anyone actually publish the intent of their handicapping system, which I think is pretty important. It seems to me that half the problem with handicapping is that half the fleet think that the best sailed boat should win whereas the other half think that if they sail well, they should. How's a handicapper gonna win that one?

 

One thing that bugs me, and which you might want to add to your ‘exclusion list’, are races that finish early. To sail only half the race, say the upwind portion, and then handicap a mixed fleet on its result would seem to skew the system a little.

[drbob 0]

One thing that bugs me, and which you might want to add to your ‘exclusion list’, are races that finish early. To sail only half the race, say the upwind portion, and then handicap a mixed fleet on its result would seem to skew the system a little.

 

Yeah I agree that can be problematic, though I think it's only happened to me once. That time it did stuff me up because I usually get smacked upwind and need the downwind fang to sail to my handicap.

[drbob 0]

If anybody's interested I have an Excel spreadsheet that models and graphs the working of the Method E handicap in YachtSys, with the ability to change the parameters to see how they change things. It started as exactly that - a way to model a new idea to prove it would work before we asked for it to be added to YS.

 

Provides graphs fleet handicaps over time, individual boat performance against handicap. Even works out race and series results.

 

PM me for a copy

[Atom Ant 0]

The use of Racetrack for events such as the Akld-Tga may not represent a true reflection of yacht and crew performances. Racetracks results are taken from club results I think, in Tauranga we sail in a sandbank infested tidal paddling pool. Shallow draft yachts excel and so do spinnakers, local knowledge and crew work is supreme. Compare this to a coastal or open water race where gennakers and downwind flyers use straightline speed and things are quite different. I don't know the solution.

Class racing. There, easy!

 

What class is Adam Ant? Colson 950?

Well it is ATOM Ant - no relationship with a shithouse 80's techno pop group.

 

Colson 9 metre. Fastest one in NZ too.

[Guest]

At present YNZ is a purely performance based handicap based on results submitted by clubs.

RaceTrack is a true Labour of Love by a dedicated individual.'

 

We need all Yacht owners and Yacht Clubs to encourage the national PHRF system to be a mix of results and measurement. It should also be consistent across regions.

It is already set up for passage racing (offshore) vs inshore.

I am aware KORC is currently being reconstituted. A review of PHRF parameters should be a high priority as part of this.

 

You can of course get IRC ratings......

[ballystick 72]

For the Akld-Tga race, most of work has been based on using PHRF so the race results will be based on that. However I emailed as many past entrants regarding which handicap system would be optimum and asked for input from them. I have got some good ideas to consider for the race and so we will be running a Racetrack number handicapped fleet (if OK by MarkM) alongside the PHRF, this will allow those staunch anti-PHRF competitors to enter and compete without having to have a current PHRF. It will interesting to see the comparisons and hopefully YNZ will improve their system throughout the year ahead as mentioned previously. Also shorthanded entrants can compete in the divisional results, as well.

[markm 30]

Whilst handicapping isn't RTs main purpose, yes Ballystick, TYPBC's most welcome to use it. Let's know if I can help in any way. (mmulcare@xtra.co.nz)

[ballystick 72]

The race committee for the Akld-Tga have analysed the event, what worked and what didn't work.

Sundreamer has put in some ideas.

How about a cruising division with a motoring clause??

 

Something we would like to know, apart from not putting in No Worries result, is some feedback about the use of Racetrack ratings and it's comparison with PHRF or any other (modified IRC perhaps) handicap system.

 

What do you think??

[Guest]

It seems to me that both Racetrack and the PHRF sail to number calculation use methodologies (which are not known to the yachting public), not published and based on aproximations which may or may not be valid. When a race is completed there are a set of elapsed times for boats, THAT IS ALL. These two systems them employ some slight of hand to compute sail to numbers. I note that Racetrack is giving sail to handicaps to four significant figures which of course implies a certain level of accuracy which is simply not the case.

 

In the past such systems for computing sail to numbers have assumed that some particular elapsed time in the data set corresponds to a PHRF or datum handicap. The sail to numbers are simply a linear relationship between the particular boats elapsed time and the datum boats elapsed time. These systems have in the past simply assumed that the medium boat performs to its PHRF or pre determined handicap. This is an assumption which has considerable consequences and its application is highly questionable. I am however prepared to concede that YNZ and Racetrack now have different or modified algorithms for computing the sail to numbers. It would be good if YNZ and Racetrack publish these algorithms or methodologies so that we can be aware of what assumptions and approximations they are making and judge their validities for ourselves. Of course the question also arises as to what filtering should be applied to the sail to numbers to produce numbers such as YNZs PHRFs. I have commented on this forum some years ago about the filtering method used by one particular member of the PHRF committee to determine the PHRFs of Auckland boats.

[PeteG 13]

No matter what system gets applied we have to appreciate that 99.9% of us are just average people who like to go for a yacht. We are not professional sailors, and enjoy getting out on the water in whatever boat we have access to. The handicap system was not out there to see the 43 missed wind shifts, 18 pretty average tacks and the 2 really choice ones, the 1 pretty okay gybe and 3 not so perfect ones that all of us are making each time. It does not account for the changes in crew each time and the fact that some days we sail like someone who is quite good and the rest of the time like it really is us out there.

Really all we can hope for is that once or twice a season we might win the rum draw.

Racetrack is really interesting, but is really only saying how we have sailed compared to our average, in comparison with the other boats that went out there.

PHRF is just some number someone decided to give us too.

I don't think there is ever going to be any perfect system, so best if we just go out for a yacht and hope we all have a good time with our mates, as the alternative is being at work.

[Deep Purple 511]

PHRF inshore

 

Pepe, 765kg 2.4m keel, Minimum cabinetry and no floorboards, Carbon rig, Square-top main, Carbon prod, gennakers and kites PHRF = .755

Wild Oats, 850kg 1.9m keel, Full cruising interior, 130kg Diesel inboard with sail drive, Alloy mast, Dacron pin-head mainsail, kites only, PHRF = .760