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SI Boat Builder ion Liquidation


wheels

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SWELLs original post did not contain the word 'yacht'

 

I have a few Questions.

 

Is this the "Official" end of boatbuilding in NZ? (other than Superyaccht builders)

 

How many new builds (under 50 foot) are being built in NZ per year now?

 

Do we have a production Boatbuilder in NZ?

 

Should the Boatbuilding industry, in NZ, declare a Drought and Claim some Government assistance?

 

:wtf: I'm just getting into boating as everyone seems to be getting out :wtf:

 

I looked at the price of a new build 35-40 footer but @$350-400k i decided you could get a very tidy 40 footer for well under half that.

 

:roll: Sorry Rigger but logic suggests that "this being a sailing website forum" we would be refering to Franklins "yacht Building" ability rather than people such as Knotme CHANGING SUBJECT to Fizz boats, which people like Knoot me demise which is evident in many posts over the last 8 years.

 

But if you want to talk Fizz boats then maybe there should be a Power boat Topic?

 

 

So don't "come at me" and point out i did'nt mention the word "Yacht" in a forum about YACHTS :roll: when people such as Knotme railroad the subject into Fizz Boats.

 

 

This is a yachtinng forum and, as stated in the post directly above, no question was asked by Wheels in the first post which suggests general topic based replies are ok and thread drift is ok to a certain level.

 

The thread drift in this thread was the changing of the thread, on a sailing Forum, to Fizz boats.

 

Point you're finger in the right direction next time.... please

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so getting back to the original question? can you answer it or just change the subject?

 

Answer a nonsensible question? Well since when did we ever have "production Yacht building" in NZ?? We had some builders producing repetitive builds of the same design and model, but none have ever been "production line" builders of a anything in a mid range size.

 

 

Repetitive?

 

In the period between 1974 - 1994 (just 20 years) NZ production boatbuilders built 1000's of yachts and kept Epiglass. many sailmakers, and many people and other suppliers very busy.

 

In the period 1994 - 2013 they have all gone.

 

These are just some of the production builders in NZ that have folded...

 

 

Mcdell Marine... Farr 1020..

 

Lotus yachts

 

Craddock marine, (100's o boats)

 

Elliot yachts/Eagle yachts

 

Sea nymph (farr trailer sailors x 100's)

 

Export yachts

 

Bonito (trailer sailers)

 

Brin Wilson (built 100's of yachts)

 

Roger Land young 88, 11, 12, ... (100's off boats around the world)

 

Marten Marine... Farr class boats, 470's finns...

 

 

 

also Builders of the following production yachts have gone ...

 

Farr727, 930, 1020, 1220

 

Lotus many sizes

 

Cavalier many sizes

 

H28 100's

 

Ross 650,780,830,930, 40....

 

Whiting yachts. 29,40...

 

Eliiot (many production designs from 5.9 - 12m+)

 

Noelex 22, 25, 30 (100's built)

 

Tasman trailer sailors

 

Davidsoon 28's

 

Trackers's

 

...Just to name a few.

 

 

To say this is cyclic is stretching the truth. i would say 90% of the market is gone and there are very little pathways back now that the Imports are here to stay.

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logic suggests that "this being a sailing website forum" we would be refering to Franklins "yacht Building" ability rather than people such as Knotme CHANGING SUBJECT to Fizz boats

 

Swell, you might have meant "yachts only", but that wasn't what your post actually said. Boat builders (including Franklins) build power boats as well as yachts (and dinghies and all sorts of stuff) so I don't think it's entirely fair to blast someone for not talking about exactly what you MEANT but not what you SAID.

 

Plenty of people get all twisted up when someone doesn't read their post properly or reads more into the post that what was said, now you're going the other way.

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I think part of the reason is that many if not most of the boats listed above were just too good. There is very little wrong with a 30 year old NZ production boat so why would you upgrade to a new one for your average cruiser/racer?

 

Obvious NZ cannot compete on price with the overseas manufacturers, thats just simple economics not helped by labour rates, resource costs and distance

 

Also our sailing population isn't growing, I don't see many sailors amongst our immigrants or prolific breeders so the current "stock" meets the current demand.

 

The odd race boat comes along that sets the world on fire for a few years but then they tend to pass into the pool of good but limited one-offs and their value plummets. I suspect it's something to do with new boats attracting the best crews. Once they have changed hands, the hired guns have moved on to the next big thing, the sails held on for too long by owners that could afford the purchase but not the ongoing running cost, then you have a boat not a lot faster than the well campaigned 6 knot shitbox your father owned.

 

And as for imports, I walked passed a Dufour 38? in Westhaven the other day and it's gotta be the ugliest thing I've ever seen in a new boat. I think I saw it or something similar sailing outside the viaduct the other night in all of 8 knots of breeze, reef in the main and all sails strapped in tight off wind, hilarious! I went sailing on a Bavaria 42 recently in company with a similar boat, when a gust hit both boats rounded up uncontrollably, the lead boat so far as to go about and launch back at us missing by a few feet.

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I also agree with SD.

 

But don't forget we4 still do have some production yachts being built and they are exporting by the container load some high value bits of kit. Sure they aren't Swells 50 plus footers (like the H28's, Farr TS, Y88's 50fters?????) but they are there and they are doing very well thank you.

 

You can live in the past but what's that going to achieve? Knot a dickey bird, adapt or die. The industry has adapted and is far from dead.

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What effect did Muldoon's "luxury" tax have on the industry?

 

I've heard anecdotally that it almost shut it down overnight.............. I think it was 20% extra tax?

 

Did a google search but couldn't find much worth reading.............

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Yep. 20% Sales Tax 'cos all yachties are rich bastards that need stroking. Slaughtered the market.

 

I'd just bought the sailmaking business I started at. Wasn't fun - 'cept the bits when guys were walking in with rolls of bills the size of a (then) weekend Herald to avoid paying the tax

 

...... not that I ever accepted such a criminal deal y' unnerstan'?

 

The industry staggers to it's feet just in time to get another roundhouse kick to the agates.

 

Seen it happen at least 3 times, works for about 7ish years then the next calamity strikes.

 

This one could take a while......

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Swell, I really don't think anyone suggested that the industry was back to as it was 30yrs ago. We are simply saying it is not the Industry of Doom and Gloom that you are suggesting it is. There are several on your list still operating and several new ones. I am glad there are new ones. I would be extremely disappointed if we still had H28's and in fact, many of the boats in your list still being built.

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Don't knock the mighty H28, it mightn't be fast but it's definitely long lived! :roll: :D :D :D

 

 

I thought that was the problem - the damn things last forever. How many cars from the 70's are still kicking about? But there are a ton of H28's reactors, ravens etc still functioning-ish 40 years later. Problem was all those selfish bastards in the 70's and 80's didn't plan for them to spontaneously fall apart after 15 years and destroyed the future of the industry :thumbdown: .

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Certainly not knocking the H28. Or Townsend or whatever older design. Hey, I own a concrete Bathtub remember. But so glad we have new designs to chose from as well, for those that want a new design that is.

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Some interesting points about the longevity of NZ boats. This is probably related more to the kiwi ability, and desire to constantly restore aging boats. Which is a good thing. (Not all our production boats were well built by the way). We have a great fleet of classics here, whereas many overseas countries trash their boats. It wasn't necessarily the builder's intentions everytime, but us kiwis will rebuild from a bare, broken hull time and again. One of my boats is a wooden Zephyr, 55 years old. Even the builder Des Townson thought that these yachts would only be good for under 10 years racing. Most of the original several hundred Zephyrs still exist. And all this does have some effect on the local boat construction market aswell.

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To add to that, Kiwi's Boat builders built and still build good quality Sailing boats and Kiwi Sailboat buyers expect nothing less. Hence one of the reasons why NZ could never build cheap production line Sailboats in the Mid size range to compete with the world market. Proof of that is in the fibreglass trailer boat market. No one has ever made a cheap nasty to be cheap and nasty. Buyers simply would never buy it.

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I think part of the reason is that many if not most of the boats listed above were just too good. There is very little wrong with a 30 year old NZ production boat so why would you upgrade to a new one for your average cruiser/racer?

 

Obvious NZ cannot compete on price with the overseas manufacturers, thats just simple economics not helped by labour rates, resource costs and distance

 

Also our sailing population isn't growing, I don't see many sailors amongst our immigrants or prolific breeders so the current "stock" meets the current demand.

 

The odd race boat comes along that sets the world on fire for a few years but then they tend to pass into the pool of good but limited one-offs and their value plummets. I suspect it's something to do with new boats attracting the best crews. Once they have changed hands, the hired guns have moved on to the next big thing, the sails held on for too long by owners that could afford the purchase but not the ongoing running cost, then you have a boat not a lot faster than the well campaigned 6 knot shitbox your father owned.

 

And as for imports, I walked passed a Dufour 38? in Westhaven the other day and it's gotta be the ugliest thing I've ever seen in a new boat. I think I saw it or something similar sailing outside the viaduct the other night in all of 8 knots of breeze, reef in the main and all sails strapped in tight off wind, hilarious! I went sailing on a Bavaria 42 recently in company with a similar boat, when a gust hit both boats rounded up uncontrollably, the lead boat so far as to go about and launch back at us missing by a few feet.

 

Said like a proud 930 owner :) :clap:

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I've just caught up on the thread - Interesting reading.

 

Couple of comments.

 

Swell- mate- I think your over reacting a little to KM's comments.

I think entirely valid.

 

The market has certainly swung to fizz nastys as a whole.

 

Do I appreciate that - Hell no.

 

But a VAST majority of the punters out there want to buy them.

 

(note the vast number of the incompetent users of the hauraki gulf...)

 

I'd love to see a reasonably priced 30 something footer new build.

Most of us who are willing to put $$ up on the table come to the realisation locally- that the best option on the table is to buy a "old" 930 or similar and give it a birthday.

 

The boats we build 30 odd years ago are damn good....and while technology and designs have gone on...the size of the local market has SHRUNK!

 

MASSIVELY.

 

I'd be accused of thread drift here- but have you noticed what's happened to yacht club memberships.....?

 

The options people have to do in their spare time since the 80's/early 90's has changed.

 

ie- computers and playstation etc. Kite surfing, SUP, gyms, dance parties, Eccy mondays, blah blah blah.

I'm sure you can see where I'm going.

 

Society has changed from the heyday of the 80's.

 

I'd love to see a modern stewart/930/88/E5.9 type boat happen.

 

Nearest to it now is the investments made into boats like the E7 by the youth Scheme backers etc now.

 

No other way to get a 1 design or class going in IMHO.

 

It needs a bunch of people to agree to commit to a programme...and put SIGNIFICANT $$ behind it.

 

BOat builders can't finance a class.

 

I'd agree that it would be nice to see the industry association get behind the design and build of a new Modern design to be fostered and built locally. However I would not see any govt assistance going to that.

 

And Auckland Shitty Council would be the last helper. Their out to rape all us boat owners emphatically.

 

ACC IMOH have no interest in yacht owners. The city of sails is dead. We are a bunch of exploitable people to be preyed on as a revenue stream and provide our historic resource (westhaven/oraki- which previous councils made available for maritime use) to the greater city for their viewing leisure.

 

Westhaven is about to lose loads of carparks for redevelopment of a walkway.

 

Most of this has been done by the council without proper consultancy. Waterfront Auckland are crooks as far as I'm concerned.

 

Good luck with the idea of govt backing to help the industry and promotion of it.

 

I'd love to see it- but I think the boys in the game are in a game of capitalism wins. Understand and adapt to that game to be successful in it.

 

Thats ugly to say- but its the truth. My heart says otherwise but my brain knows it to be so.

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It would have been awesome if all of the shaw boats had of stayed in the country as they could ahve taken off as a new 30 foot class if one or two more had of been built for locals.

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It would have been awesome if all of the shaw boats had of stayed in the country as they could ahve taken off as a new 30 foot class if one or two more had of been built for locals.

 

Agree - But you'd need another 10 of them to make it really interesting.

 

Same could have been said for the Eagle8000/Dibley 8m (aka supergroove/springloaded).

 

All cool boats- but without volume they are basically limited run designs.

 

And- to be fair- would probably reduce the number of active boats racing in the Y88 fleet (or like?)

 

Would be interesting to canvas opinion on that.

 

Seems to me- the number of people with $$ to spend on Race boats is less than it used to be.

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This is a really interesting thread. Particularly interesting is the myth perpetuated here that Euro boats are inferior to NZ boats...

 

As someone who previously owned a Dufour, (OK a long time ago), and someone who looked at the NZ market hard before following his heart to buy a Ross 40 (and not his brain saying "Stop! This will cost you a fortune" And it has..) I have a few comments on the Euro boats that may not go down well here, but have to be said.

 

On the whole, NZ boats, production and otherwise, are NOT well finished. The Beneteaus, Dufours, Jeanneaus etc, leave them for dead. And certainly the older Euro boats anyway, were WAY stronger than the equivalent NZ boat. What I put my Dufour 29 through, no NZ built boat would have survived unless it was steel... :D :D . I would have ripped the keel off a Y88 with some of my groundings in the Rhine and Rhone in the Dufour.. Hard to break a masthead rigged lamp-post as well. NZ boats lose their masts all the time. The Y88, Y11s, Ross boats all have small mast sections compared to a Euro production boat, and are susceptable to misuse. ( :oops: :oops: :oops: ).

 

Having said that, my old Dufour 29 was slow, handled badly (IOR design) and was not particularly nice to sail. 9 knots down a wave was out of control... Most NZ boats such as 88s, Y11s, Ross boats in general, Elliot 1050s and so on, are a Delight to sail, responsive, light, fast and seaworthy. When I first helmed a Ross 40 (Urban Cowboy in a Coastal) they had to prise the tiller out of my hands, and I couldn't get rid of the grin on my face. It was like sailing a big laser...

 

But please don't tell me they are well finished, inside anyway. The wiring is generally very poor. Engine installations basic and often lacking good soundproofing and ventilation, The hulls have no liners (Dufour invented the inner moulding and grid back in the 70s that really gives a nice inside finish). Poor use is made of space, whereas the Euro boats use every last scrap of space with cunning lockers, decent heads, large cabins and so on. Yes NZ woodwork is amazing, and the skill of our tradesmen second to none, but our production boats came a poor second to the Euros for comfort and interior finish.

 

Of course the Euros also pioneered the assembly line production of yachts, something that I guess is only economical when you have numbers. Kiwi boat-builders were just not that far sighted, and constantly hamstrung by problems like the Muldoon boat tax, whereas the French builders in particular got government assistance and had the advantage of a massive marketplace on their back door... They also fell over one by one, but Beneteau bought them. (They own Dufour and Jeanneau to the best of my knowledge).

 

I think the Euros deserve their status as #1 sellers, and if you look at the recent round NZ race, they're obviously not TOO badly built either!

 

I shall now duck for cover!!

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SWELLs original post did not contain the word 'yacht'

 

I have a few Questions.

 

Is this the "Official" end of boatbuilding in NZ? (other than Superyaccht builders)

 

How many new builds (under 50 foot) are being built in NZ per year now?

 

Do we have a production Boatbuilder in NZ?

 

Should the Boatbuilding industry, in NZ, declare a Drought and Claim some Government assistance?

 

:wtf: I'm just getting into boating as everyone seems to be getting out :wtf:

 

I looked at the price of a new build 35-40 footer but @$350-400k i decided you could get a very tidy 40 footer for well under half that.

 

:roll: Sorry Rigger but logic suggests that "this being a sailing website forum" we would be refering to Franklins "yacht Building" ability rather than people such as Knotme CHANGING SUBJECT to Fizz boats, which people like Knoot me demise which is evident in many posts over the last 8 years.

 

But if you want to talk Fizz boats then maybe there should be a Power boat Topic?

 

 

So don't "come at me" and point out i did'nt mention the word "Yacht" in a forum about YACHTS :roll: when people such as Knotme railroad the subject into Fizz Boats.

 

 

This is a yachtinng forum and, as stated in the post directly above, no question was asked by Wheels in the first post which suggests general topic based replies are ok and thread drift is ok to a certain level.

 

The thread drift in this thread was the changing of the thread, on a sailing Forum, to Fizz boats.

 

Point you're finger in the right direction next time.... please

 

 

As you included superyacht (which to me includes sail as well as power yachts) in your original post I took it you were meaning the whole industry.

 

You posted in the Marine section, last time I looked through the Marine section there were all manner of posts relating to all sorts of marine topics.

 

Please do not take offence because other people cannot read your mind.

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