rigger 47 Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Link to a thread on antifouling Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 MrWolf PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: A great antifouling Just wanted to share that we decided to paint the Wolf with micron66 antifoul. (Having previously used Ultra, Altex #5, Altex #10 and Seahorse) Had to give the boat its first clean (its been off Shoal Bay for 2 months). in terms of actually preventing growth in the first place, the Micron66 is miles better than the others I've tried. Used a very soft brush and the growth cleaned off really easily. There was also not too much of the Antifoul colouring the water as it ablates. in other words the growth was coming off but not too much paint was. All in all a very positive experience. application: we sanded the old antifoul off using orbital sanders and 60g. I first applied 3 coats of interprotect and sanded this with 120 grit using a speedfile. this gave a good undercoat base and also allowed a small amount of fairing. The day we put on the micron66 I first of all sprayed on 2 good coats of Interprotect using a Pressure Pot. we did not allow this to fully dry, we left it about half an hour. Jason Sagar of sagar coatings then applied 3 good coats of Micron66 using a small airless set up. By getting the antifoul on really smooth I think it makes it all the easier to keep the boat clean. Prior to launching we soak the bottom with fresh water. Micron66 is very expensive. The others I had tried were all in the $99-$139 for 4 litres price range. Anyway my point was I think the good stuff was well worth the money. I also think that going through the correct preparation was also a lot better than simply rolling more antifoul over the top. We also used 2 x 1 gallon tins rather than trying to stretch 1x 4 litre tin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:55 pm Yes you are right, it is a very good anti-foul, but very expensive. You shouldn't need to scrub it, a simple sail should have seen the growth wash off. Re-coats should be done as soon as the initial coat is dry. Don't wait too long between coats and before the re-splash. This paint has a toxin (other than copper) in it that evaporates if left too long in the air. What was the idea behind pre wetting the bottom with Fresh water before the launch?? When we first anti-fouled our hull, I applied 10ltrs of Altex and didn't have quite enough to finish. So I finished with a 4ltr of Micron. When we hauled a 18mths later, you could see a difference between the two coatings. But because we don't get a lot of growth anyway, the Altex was not so bad and the more expensive Micron was not worth the extra expense. I am not sure what the yard is actually applying now. Either Altex or maybe Ameron. We haul each year, so I don't worry about what we put on so much as long as it works and is cheap. Oh yeah and spraying is far better than rolling. Never going to roll again. Rolling two coats on a 45ft full keel hull is a killer. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quantum leap PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:29 pm wheels wrote: Yes you are right, it is a very good anti-foul, but very expensive. You shouldn't need to scrub it, a simple sail should have seen the growth wash off. Re-coats should be done as soon as the initial coat is dry. Don't wait too long between coats and before the re-splash. This paint has a toxin (other than copper) in it that evaporates if left too long in the air. What was the idea behind pre wetting the bottom with Fresh water before the launch?? When we first anti-fouled our hull, I applied 10ltrs of Altex and didn't have quite enough to finish. So I finished with a 4ltr of Micron. When we hauled a 18mths later, you could see a difference between the two coatings. But because we don't get a lot of growth anyway, the Altex was not so bad and the more expensive Micron was not worth the extra expense. I am not sure what the yard is actually applying now. Either Altex or maybe Ameron. We haul each year, so I don't worry about what we put on so much as long as it works and is cheap. Oh yeah and spraying is far better than rolling. Never going to roll again. Rolling two coats on a 45ft full keel hull is a killer. just for you info... the other toxins in the new antifoul, besides Cupros oxide, are anti slime aditives or boosters. The don' really evaporate but oxidize in the air, just like alloy does, but faster. the only thing that evap[oorates from the paint is solvent! and it must be left for all solvent to evaporate or it will compromise the performance of the Antifoul. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quantum leap PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:46 pm Hey Mr wolf, you could have appleid th interprotect with the airless (finer tip) and used about 20-30% less paint. anda good applicator would get a good smooth finish. Using Airless also reduces tack off and dry times. leaving interprotect only 30 mins before recoating, when spraying with a pressure pot, may leave excessive solvent in the film and creat little blisters. which will appear later on. mind you if you applied it in hot conditions and plenty of wind you may get away with it. Check recoat times! The best test is to push your thumb into the paint and if no paint attaches to your thumb and there is no thumb print in the film then its ok! The idea is to let the interprotect cure enough to let the solvent release from the film but be soft enough for the A/foul to "bite" (sovent in A/foul softens the interprotect) into the intrprotect and attach. Its a good system. Micron 66 is a great A/foul (a development of their commercial "tin free technology) but if you evaluate months clean per $ spent no5 from Altex is better. HOWEVER, if you want a fast bottom 9smoothest system) then No10 and micron 66 (burnished) have the best fricton co -efficient and are excellent. for the ultimate "super fast surface" there are some systems i worked on for Dicksons Tag's, oracle and team germany's AC team that are far superior to everything you can buy locally of the shelf. but they have no Anti foul properties. In fact, i think, most teams including Alingi and Oracle are still using them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elly PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:38 pm QL, you mention Altex No.10. I have just been reading a pamphlet from altex on the "new" No.10. It now has less copper in it, and some other biocide added. Also, it says you can put it on top of No.5! I always thought that putting hard on top of soft was a no-no, but it seems this new No.10 is magic stuff? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quantum leap PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:46 pm Elly wrote: QL, you mention Altex No.10. I have just been reading a pamphlet from altex on the "new" No.10. It now has less copper in it, and some other biocide added. Also, it says you can put it on top of No.5! I always thought that putting hard on top of soft was a no-no, but it seems this new No.10 is magic stuff? when the say hard they are talking about the old Hard "contact leaching A/fouls like E-type and Endurance! the new Hard products are ablative (as is the no5) and while they say they are hard they are not that much harder than the softer types like No5. Having said that i would double check with them on this as sometimes marketing departments make good expensive cock ups!!! orremove as much as possible of the no5 if you are changing from it! why well there have been (in the past) a few issues overseas with performance when doing this. but they may have overcome this ??? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to post Share on other sites
rigger 47 Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 Antifoul Altex No 5 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Idm 28 PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:19 pm Post subject: Antifoul Altex No 5 What sort of duration are people getting with this product. My hull seems to be quite good after two years with the occassional water blast..maybe I will see if I can get 3 years out of it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:15 am The time you get out of any antifoul depends on many variables. Like how much you put on in the first place. What the water your boat sits in is like, as in salinity, temperature, Tidal flow, clarity and so on. Then also when you say a waterblast, what are you blasting off? and how fast does it come back. A fresh coat may see the growth or slime take longer to come back. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Captain Haddock PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:40 am I have only got 10 months from my Altex no. 5 this time around. I probably didn't put it on thickly enough though. I've just moved my boat from a marina to the Tamaki River so I'll be getting even more wear around the waterline with the increased wave action. Also, I like to get under my boat and give it a clean every now and again - no hardship in summer which is when most of the growth happens anyway. I'm seriously considering changing to Altex no. 10. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quantum leap PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:25 am wheels wrote: The time you get out of any antifoul depends on many variables. Like how much you put on in the first place. What the water your boat sits in is like, as in salinity, temperature, Tidal flow, clarity and so on. Then also when you say a waterblast, what are you blasting off? and how fast does it come back. A fresh coat may see the growth or slime take longer to come back. Your right on wheels. Antifouls like No5 are what they call ablative and work by the salt water reacting with the "Water soluble resin" that binds the A/foul. Most Ablative or "controlled Soluble Co-polymers are a blend of non soluble and semi soluble polymers that the active ingredient, Cuprous Oxide" is contained in. The chemist generally designs the solubility of the resin to break down and expose "new copper" at a controled rate that suites a particular saline/temp and boat speed parameters. No5 is very soft and suited for most conditions and boats that don't exceed about 20-25 Knots. No 10 is a harder co polymer mix that can be burnished / scrubbed. They key to long life is... putting the right amount (film build) on and "extra coats"on the high wear areas (waterline...) with softer a/fouls such as No 5 when you come to clean them the best way is to soft sponge the slime off then hose down with low pressure. high pressure water blasting is just blowing off a lot of good product. Big ships use very similar products and easily get 5 years from their A'Fouls... why? well they have worked out the film build and solubility level that allows the A'foul to wears and self clean before wearing through to the base coat (1st coat). They put an equivilant of 5 coats on and generally make the first coat a slightly different colour so they know when they are getting down to the last 6 - 12 months. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- idm28 PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:08 pm well i probably have a bit of a build up of product over the last years of using the same stuft. I have done two "soft" waterblasts in 2 years. I seem to be getting better results as a result of mixing the product with an electric mixer every hour or so as I was putting it on.I think by water blasting once a year I am exposing fresh material which seems to keep on working. Boat is at Gulf harbour so not much tidal flow there. I put two thick coats on with three on the high wear areas. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wheels PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:54 pm Once again I stress the "it depends on the situation" comment, but I used to go for the two coats and three or even four around high wear area's. And when we haul, she's very clean. But then the slipway manager convinced me to just go one coat. When we hauled again, she was only just slightly dirtier with slime. For our area, he reckons it is better to do one coat and haul each year. clean and one coat again. To many try and go two years and I am not saying that can't work. But at the same time, it is better to haul each year and inspect everything below water line. I am glad I did, I was a hairs breadth away from losing the rudder. Of course, that has to weighed up with your environment and the cost of Hauling. For me it's $250 to haul. I know it's a lot more for you guys in Auckland. I have a friend that can dry his boat at an extra low tide and so he goes two years. For me I can't. By the way, it's not so much the wave action that can wear the antifoul in a river. Add up the speed of the current and the hrs it flows and you will be shocked by how many Nm your boat does each year while sitting on the mooring. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quantum leap PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:34 pm idm28 wrote: well i probably have a bit of a build up of product over the last years of using the same stuft. I have done two "soft" waterblasts in 2 years. I seem to be getting better results as a result of mixing the product with an electric mixer every hour or so as I was putting it on.I think by water blasting once a year I am exposing fresh material which seems to keep on working. Boat is at Gulf harbour so not much tidal flow there. I put two thick coats on with three on the high wear areas. hey the one very important factor that can make any A/foul look good for years... if your boat has a fresh water / salt water mix of conditions. IE in a river or near a fresh water outlet/ drain. Why well one of the greatest secrets that not a lot of people know is .... anything (except some fish)that survives in fresh water generally dies in salt water and vice versa. thats why saline (or salt water / salts ) is used to kill fresh water bugs!!! IE eye irigartion fluids, Chlorine to kill mould... at my local boat ramp there is a strip of the ramp that has a leaky tap running down it 24/7 and this area is free from weed and slime right down to about a metre below the low tide mark. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Link to post Share on other sites
Atom Ant 0 Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Antifouling has become one of my favourite subjects. Not because of any expertise - oh no - I can promise that. But mostly because I have a hankering for something alot better than what we ordinary mortals can get. So what do you think of... http://www.anti-fouling.com/ It seems to me to be the prefect solution. Just mount it on the marina at each end and Bobs your Uncle, instant antifouling! No painting, no slime, sounds perfect. What's the catch? The price to be sure as it's undoubtedly expensive and the electrodes every 18 months will surely be more than a couple of cans of paint. But it sounds like this would work for 2 30 ft yachts next to each other in a marina so shared costs might be do-able. Waddaya reckon? Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Yep know it. It has been around for a long time now. STAY AWAY from it. It's yet another snake oil one. But the real danger is that you have 12V from the jetty flowing to the boat. Think about it, how does Electrolosys work and what happens when you have stray currents in a Marina ? Link to post Share on other sites
Atom Ant 0 Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Don't worry it's not in my budget for this sort of thing so this is an "in theory" conversation. The whole thing about electricity and boats is largely under-understood by many - me included. I often have power coming into my boat from the marina. It's either running a dehumidifier which isn't exactly connected to the boat and so my reasoning says there is no electrolysis danger from that. I have it on after racing when there could be up to 3 or 4 sails to dry out over a couple of weeks. I also have power coming into the boat for a "smart charger" to keep my batteries topped up nicely. This, to my reasoning, has the boat connected to power, and yet my zincs last forever. So back to 2B Sure. I understand that the electrodes are shoving electricity through the water, which release copper ions, but does that necessarily endanger the boat? I understand the dangers of electrolysis, but wonder if all electricity is bad, or is it just "uncontrolled" current release that's the problem? I looked (not exhaustively) for dirt on this system and didn't find any. I did see a post on a British forum which reminded me of an American forum where they get abusive quite quickly and often. Lord Lugworm reminded me of one of our favourite (NOT) ex posters. http://www.worldseafishing.com/forums/s ... p?t=254752 Having said that this guy wanted to do a DIY system and not buy a kosher system so I can understand why people reacted negatively to his posts! Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 I wrote an article on Electrolysys. I will find it and post it here under the Zince anode topic. Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted June 6, 2010 Share Posted June 6, 2010 In hind sight, it might be easier here. The info oin the anodes goes into what happens with it and why. So I wont cover that here yet again. But to take that topic just a little further, the electrical current that flows from the Anode to the Cathode, which is the boat part we are protecting, carries along with it the Anions of Zinc. Hence why the zinc disappears. Now if the environment was closed and small enough, the zinc would eventually migrate to the Cathode and attach itself to it. Effectively coating the boat part in Zinc which is called Electroplating. But our boats are in a much bigger environment and the water is moving. So those little articles of Zinc get carried off in the current and have no such ability of ever making ot to the part it is protecting. Hence our metal boat parts underwater remain the metal they are. So going back to this copper electrical system. For it to work, two things have to happen. One is, the copper has to make it from the Anode to the Cathode. If the two were just inches apart and had very little water movment, then any copper particles coming in contact with the cathode would attach to it. However, the distance and the water movement would mean it has no show of reaching the cathode. In fact and copper paricles would simply be carried off imediately as it left the Anode. So to have a "cloud" of copper in a to be effective enough to stop growth and to be able to cover all the water area of the entire hull, is just impossible. If it really was possible, you would also be anti-fouling most of the Marina......at your expense. Not to mention a cloud of toxic metal in the water. It's bad enough for the minute amounts that erode off anti-foul paint as it is now and some countries are now wanting Copper to follow the path of Tin and have it banned. Link to post Share on other sites
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