203 0 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Just playing devils advocate here but if everyone has a carbon rig then where is the benefit? All that happens is the price of the boat goes up, and the performance stays the same relative to the boat next to you. Then there is no benefit if each rig is the same as the other. I know that in the 3.7, Every rig is different to suit the sailor, and completly different designs from fixed-spreader rigs to over rotating wing masts.. But its all just personal opinion I guess. At the end of the day, if they are all identical,then just go with alloy because its farr cheaper, and like you said, no benifit, But with the 650, not many of the boats are the same are they? I do get where your coming from AA and you do have a true and valid point.. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 So ocean race ready around - 47300 for the list of bits as Nam posted earlier 13000 was Booboos ballpark figure for a suite of sails 15000 for safety gear, guessing here and possibly high 10000 for build beverages and shiney things to shut down the 'That bloody boat again' comments from the missus. Grand total 85K race ready or exceptionally close too. 5K in electronics??? It's a Mini knot a Russian spy trawler, that's unless you built in an allowance for Booboo's stereo Cheap fun especially as it can be spread out over a time frame. Trysails and storm jibs must be carried and count as part of the 8 sails allowed on board at any one time. Then Double it! in reality this does not include $$$ for guys who can't do everything... Transportation of boat to water? Riggers cost to rig boat (labour) Rigging? Paint? (spray painter / labour) Tool that you used to have but were lost / stolen / borrowed! Sundry stuff like sand paper gloves, tinber for jig, screws and nails. Shed hire? lost wages / holidays $$$? cloth resin fillers? tillers, Interior fit out? (Hammock) and plastic bucket) Engineer to fab fin and bulb! hydarulics / system to tilt keel and all sundry equip, engineer to fit?, and painting! labour for a elctronics guru to wire and fit a good electronics package! Rope! price increases! i like the old method of pricing better... price of the average steak you can buy in a resteraunt(porterhouse) multiplied by the LOA... thus $25 x 6.5 = $162.5K I bet $162.5K is closer! any takers? So what happened here KM? NFS was probably more realistic. So after all the hot air not one was built? Maybe it's a case of the boats being priced OK and the general sailing public being to poor to afford them compared to a rich country like france. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 It's all relative, if you can afford one out of pocket change they are cheap, if you can make it if you struggle a little they are priced OK, If there's no way on God's earth you can have one they are bloody expensive. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Been waiting a while for that haven't you JP Agreed, titanium fittings don't give much bang for your buck, but carbon rigs are worth having. Yes and No. They are worth having if you have your existing alloy rig working to it's maximum and you know you can make a carbon one work better again. The gist of that comment of mine was I see many people buying toys to make their boat go faster when the slowest thing on the boat is them themselves. I suppose you could say many buy fancy toys to try and hide the fact they have sh*t skills and if they worked on improving those skills their boat could be so much faster without resorting to having to buy speed. Throwing money for speed at boats is the EU way, it wasn't NZ's............... until recently. We used to have marginal gear but knew how to use it damn well. Gotta run, I just spent moonbeams on some gear for my boat Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I'm biased of course.... Although if I went back to an alloy rig on WT it would have the same effect of a 10yr old kid permanently sitting on the first spreader. You don't have to be a skilled sailor to feel the righting moment difference. Just saying..... some things are worth the extra expense cause the performance return is so great. The argument for carbon vs glass hulls is a different story though. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Most likely the first and only time i'll agree with JP, but $160k sounds like a realistic cost price for a skilled owner/builder to produce a proto with a carbon hull and rig. It would be pretty simple with a barely adequate level of electronics and deck equipment. Link to post Share on other sites
TimW 1 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Just playing devils advocate here but if everyone has a carbon rig then where is the benefit? All that happens is the price of the boat goes up, and the performance stays the same relative to the boat next to you. Look at the good old P Class. A carbon mast has proven to be very good value for money. A Carbon mast is cheaper than the Imported Spunspar or Goldspar mast (that was the last alloy mast to win a P class contest of note). The Carbon masts have been virtually unbreakable. Compared to dozens and dozens of alloy masts breaking every weekend in the old days. The key in the P class was releasing the carbon mast as a one design mast with 3 weight grades from a single manufacturer at the right price. Bollocks to anyone or any class that promotes alloy spars! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I wasn't promoting or knot the use of alloy or carbon. I was just trying to say if you sail like a retard all the toys in the world will only make you sail like a retard on a really flash boat. There are people spending a lot of money on flash shite when they would go a lot faster if they learned how to sail properly. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Just playing devils advocate here but if everyone has a carbon rig then where is the benefit? All that happens is the price of the boat goes up, and the performance stays the same relative to the boat next to you. Look at the good old P Class. A carbon mast has proven to be very good value for money. A Carbon mast is cheaper than the Imported Spunspar or Goldspar mast (that was the last alloy mast to win a P class contest of note). The Carbon masts have been virtually unbreakable. Compared to dozens and dozens of alloy masts breaking every weekend in the old days. The key in the P class was releasing the carbon mast as a one design mast with 3 weight grades from a single manufacturer at the right price. B*****s to anyone or any class that promotes alloy spars! Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 100% of TimW's original carbon P rigs (from 10 years ago) are still in service and still winning races. Meanwhile the starlings are still folding up rigs like straws most weekends. There would have been a few in the skip from the weekend just gone i'm betting.... Unfortunately alloy rigs are just too heavy and unreliable for a class boat. Link to post Share on other sites
JK 28 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The Starlings have tried hard to replace the mast with a carbon version. Southern Spars have invested heaps in producing a mast that matches the characteristics of the existing alloy one & there have been test masts competing in regattas for years. Things may be changing but the class rules mandated a certain majority to pass the change, this included all registered boats & not just ones actively racing. There have been two referendums that have both been narrowly defeated that may have been different if only current members of the Starling Association were included in the calculation. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The Starlings have tried hard to replace the mast with a carbon version. Southern Spars have invested heaps in producing a mast that matches the characteristics of the existing alloy one & there have been test masts competing in regattas for years. Things may be changing but the class rules mandated a certain majority to pass the change, this included all registered boats & not just ones actively racing. There have been two referendums that have both been narrowly defeated that may have been different if only current members of the Starling Association were included in the calculation. Why introduce a carbon mast into a class that has survived without it and offers no advantage to a one design juniorr class where the main point of this class is to be all the same. as soon as you introduce carbon then there will be mods and out of control manipulation of the rigs bend / stiffness characteristic's and then there is no one design class anymore! The biggest class in the world manages fine without carbon, namely the LASER! bACK TO TOPIC... Any body heard of Gracefulswans Mini 650's in Auckland Link to post Share on other sites
TimW 1 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The laser will end up with a Carbon mast as will the starling its only a matter of time. The Laser will be a better boat when all the masts are actually the same and a sailor will be able to buy one mast and know its the same as any other. At the moment top laser sailors buy around 15 rigs and they all vary all over the place. And this Carbon is too expensive argument is very relevant to the Class 650 project, its just people have to approach it in the right way, along the lines of what KM was saying (everyone on the same page). I'm sure that is what has gone wrong in the Starling class. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I'm picking Lasers will be carbon before the next Olympics..... Carbon rigs can be produced very cheaply if you're not hung up on where the tube is produced. But for a class like the mini I think the boat's need to be seen to be up to date. You can't see a glass hull or a foam core, but you can see a carbon rig. Link to post Share on other sites
JK 28 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Because JP the existing aluminium masts have proved to be "fragile". It is a regular occurence to see bent Starling masts at club sailing and regattas. The expectation is that when your aluminium masts breaks you can replace with a carbon fibre one and never buy another again - sort of like the P masts which have proved to outlast the aluminium ones. There has been considerable development of the carbon masts to ensure they have the same bend characteristics as the aluminium ones and they will be built by one company, just the same as the current extrusion supply and sail arrangement. And to think that aluminium precludes rig bend/stiffness manipulation is incorrect. You are already permitted within the rules to add a stiffener to the lower section of variable length and stiffness, and even back to when I was sailing a Starling people would test the bend between batches with supported ends and weights. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 My starling rigs were always stiffer and straighter than anyone else’s. I know cause as soon as Fosters got a new batch of F4’s I was down there making sure I had first dibs. They usually got 50-60 sections. From those, 30 would be straight. Then from that 30, 5 would be nice and stiff. I’d buy those 5 sections and get them anodised to stiffen them up a little bit more. Those sections would get me through till the next batch was delivered. The differences in stiffness were VAST to the point you’d think it was a different alloy. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 i understand Alloy and how the die wear can make a section change dramatically from the 1st pull down to the last section pulled down from the die prior to replacement. Tempering and hardening produces differences to due to hot spots in the oven. But even Carbon tube can have variances, can be buggered around with, and until big volumes are processed the price is still way to expensive (even from Asia. WHICH INCLUDES FREIGHT ETC) Look at all the dingies and 1-2 person boats that still use alloy... laser, FF, Star, 470, 420, etchells, sabot, young 88, hobies, tasers,........ most european clases.... in fact it is easier to name the classes with carbon rigs... finn, 49'r, tornado, p class. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 As it is with the P Class, the tubes are supplied within a certain bend range, specified by the class. If the tube isn't in that bend range they are taken out of the batch. So there will not be any 'soft' or 'stiff' tubes outside of what the class ass. has specified. This is the same with other sucessfulcarbon rig OD classes such as: J-70 VX Elliott 6m Elliott 6s Elliott 7m 29er 49er 49er FX Moth Nacra 17 Contender FD Finn Melges 24 Melges 32 Mumm 30 Soto 30 Soto 40 Farr 40 Farr 400 Carkeek 40 Kerr 40 However the Platu 25's still have alloy rigs and seem to do ok. However they have a rep for being scary tippy downwind Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 As it is with the P Class, the tubes are supplied within a certain bend range, specified by the class. If the tube isn't in that bend range they are taken out of the batch. So there will not be any 'soft' or 'stiff' tubes outside of what the class ass. has specified. This is the same with other sucessfulcarbon rig OD classes such as: J-70 VX Elliott 6m Elliott 6s Elliott 7m 29er 49er 49er FX Moth Nacra 17 Contender FD Finn Melges 24 Melges 32 Mumm 30 Soto 30 Soto 40 Farr 40 Farr 400 Carkeek 40 Kerr 40 However the Platu 25's still have alloy rigs and seem to do ok. However they have a rep for being scary tippy downwind there ya go i told you it would be easier to name the classes with carbon rigs. although some of those are not sailed in big numbers much and only a few sailed here in NZ. Alloy still dominates. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 My point is, to be taken seriously as a new OD-ish class the boat needs to appear to be a high quality product with rules that safe guard against premature aging and becoming obsolete. Getting alloy sections is becoming harder and harder, where as the price and availability of carbon is coming down. Some things have a knock on effect, such as rig weight. And with open class boats. righting moment and weight is key. So in the case of this 6.5, a large amount of expense, complexity and risk is put into a canting keel and twin daggarboard + twin rudder system. Then all that advantage you've paid so much for is negated by a very tall, very heavy alloy mast with metal rigging hanging to leeward. So why not keep the foils simple, A deep, light fixed keel, no daggerboards, 1 rudder etc. Then go for a very light carbon rig and carbon rigging package. You'll find that the boat is just as quick, but it's now cheaper and up to date + reliability has increased and build complexity has reduced. I can't see canting keels with an alloy rig being logical from a budget, performance, or a marketing perspective. Know what I mean? Link to post Share on other sites
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