Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 My point is, to be taken seriously as a new OD-ish class the boat needs to appear to be a high quality product with rules that safe guard against premature aging and becoming obsolete. Getting alloy sections is becoming harder and harder, where as the price and availability of carbon is coming down. Some things have a knock on effect, such as rig weight. And with open class boats. righting moment and weight is key. So in the case of this 6.5, a large amount of expense, complexity and risk is put into a canting keel and twin daggarboard + twin rudder system. Then all that advantage you've paid so much for is negated by a very tall, very heavy alloy mast with metal rigging hanging to leeward. So why not keep the foils simple, A deep, light fixed keel, no daggerboards, 1 rudder etc. Then go for a very light carbon rig and carbon rigging package. You'll find that the boat is just as quick, but it's now cheaper and up to date + reliability has increased and build complexity has reduced. I can't see canting keels with an alloy rig being logical from a budget, performance, or a marketing perspective. Know what I mean? know what you mean but alloy spars can be made by any of the 15 odd extruders in nz as long as the die holder lets you use the die. or you spend 2-3k and get your own die. Its proven, easy and cheaper than carbon. Don't get me wrong i love carbon rigs. but unless you the serious race type then they are just an expense most can't afford or choose not to change to. especially in one off boats where cost is too high. in bigger numbers such as lasers then carbon would be no dearer than alloy as for class longevity well Carbon spars does not guarantee longevity. good class structure, support, etc does. Are they making any canting boats at the moment? what was the last one and when was it launched. NZ is full of "standard keel" boats with alloy rigs for one big reason!... can you guess what it is? Link to post Share on other sites
JK 28 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 JP, I'm a parent responsible for purchasing a new Starling mast when the current one breaks, as it undoubtably will. When I purchase a new mast I would prefer it to be a carbon fibre one as that would probably mean it was the last one I bought. The sentiment appears to be shared by the majority of active Starling racers across two referendums. The only thing that has stopped the proposal being accepted is a constitution which essentially stated that a high majority of registered Starling owners had to be in favour, and given that many of the registered boats are owned by inactive owners who could not be bothered filling in and returning a postal ballot paper, or may not have had a change of ownership processed, the vote was not passed. I understand that a change to the constitution was passed, and now active owners will vote by email. It may well be passed at the next attempt. As to the change to carbon masts - google the history of the Byte CII class. It was in the doldrums before a change to a carbon mast, is now on the rise & has been selected for the last two world youth champs. Link to post Share on other sites
Atom Ant 0 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Must say I'm enjoying this exchange and learning alot. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Here's some more then AA..... know what you mean but alloy spars can be made by any of the 15 odd extruders in nz as long as the die holder lets you use the die. or you spend 2-3k and get your own die. You're a bit light on your die cost unfortunately. Go and ask Bart if you can borrow his F15 die to knock up your tubes. You'll soon realize that you'll need to order your tube, along with 20 of your closest friends tubes at the same time for anyone to touch the job. Either that or your costs per tube are much higher than carbon. I only know this because I've been dealing with small run alloy extrusion production recently and I can't get around this minimum run issue. NZ is full of "standard keel" boats with alloy rigs for one big reason!... can you guess what it is? It's because most were built in the 80's and the rigs on these keel boats are all 20 years old. I went through the process of finding an alloy tube to use as a mould for my carbon rig. I had a choice of the Matrix PR6 which is a 1980's section designed for the Y88, and also a F15 Fosters section. The PR6 shape is very dated, and the F15 is actually pretty good shape, however they are heavy and pretty soft. From what I remember the BBW 403 minis used either F15 or F14 sections. But they were too soft for the RM of a canting mini. So they required additional internal and external stiffening. The labour required for this stiffening work added so much value to the rig that the final bill actually exceeded that of a carbon rig 1/2 the weight. But the rules at that point said alloy only. I remember it driving Chris crazy that he had to spend so much $ on such an out of date rig. I have a off-cut from one of these rigs and it's super heavy. I can't remember the final weight but it was around 55kg bare tube. The rig i've just done for WT is 26kg bare tube, and it's 400% stiffer than the mini rig of the same length. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Here's one of the cool old pics from the 403's Love it how the logo is larger than the boat! Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 JP, I'm a parent responsible for purchasing a new Starling mast when the current one breaks, as it undoubtably will. When I purchase a new mast I would prefer it to be a carbon fibre one as that would probably mean it was the last one I bought. The sentiment appears to be shared by the majority of active Starling racers across two referendums. The only thing that has stopped the proposal being accepted is a constitution which essentially stated that a high majority of registered Starling owners had to be in favour, and given that many of the registered boats are owned by inactive owners who could not be bothered filling in and returning a postal ballot paper, or may not have had a change of ownership processed, the vote was not passed. I understand that a change to the constitution was passed, and now active owners will vote by email. It may well be passed at the next attempt. As to the change to carbon masts - google the history of the Byte CII class. It was in the doldrums before a change to a carbon mast, is now on the rise & has been selected for the last two world youth champs. No point using overseas examples for what's happening g in NZ. In NZ acceptance of Carbon rigs in boats under 20 feet is low accept where they are forced by local and overseas class governance. The main reason people do not switch is purely the cost v benefit. Sure if you want performance it's a No brainer. But cruiser racer types will stay alloy until carbon is cheaper. Then what happens the with starling will be the same as happened with P's. The change will come and only the people who can afford it will get them then this will create a two class within a class issue where there are alloy rigs v carbon and this in turn will see class numbers drop and then the inevitable A and B division. Just look at the numbers drop off in fleets that introduced carbon rigs after having alloy. Every time people (generally manufacturer) lobby for a change they introduce a cost that not all can afford. Y11,s and the keel changes has rooted that class. Fibreglass p,s killed numbers,. The Y88 is populars because of one thing.... it has not changed and thus it is affordable to a wider range of people. As opposed to the Ross 930 which, while being. Nice boat, is now a fleet of mavericks. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Here's some more then AA..... know what you mean but alloy spars can be made by any of the 15 odd extruders in nz as long as the die holder lets you use the die. or you spend 2-3k and get your own die. You're a bit light on your die cost unfortunately. Go and ask Bart if you can borrow his F15 die to knock up your tubes. You'll soon realize that you'll need to order your tube, along with 20 of your closest friends tubes at the same time for anyone to touch the job. Either that or your costs per tube are much higher than carbon. I only know this becamjiuse I've been dealing with small run alloy extrusion production recently and I can't get around this minimum run issue. NZ is full of "standard keel" boats with alloy rigs for one big reason!... can you guess what it is? It's because most were built in the 80's and the rigs on these keel boats [are all 20 years old. I went through the process of finding an alloy tube to use as a mould for my carbon rig. I had a choice of the Matrix PR6 which is a 1980's section designed for the Y88, and also a F15 Fosters section. The PR6 shape is very dated, and the F15 is actually pretty good shape, however they are heavy and pretty soft. From what I remember the BBW 403 minis used either F15 or F14 sections. But they were too soft for the RM of a canting mini. So they required additional internal and external stiffening. The labour required for this stiffening work added so much value to the rig that the final bill actually exceeded that of a carbon rig 1/2 the weight. But the rules at that point said alloy only. I remember it driving Chris crazy that he had to spend so much $ on such an out of date rig. I have a off-cut from one of these rigs and it's super heavy. I can't remember the final weight but it was around 55kg bare tube. The rig i've just done for WT is 26kg bare tube, and it's 400% stiffer than the mini rig of the same length. Who's Bart and who's quoting in my quote? If you are paying more for you dies then you are being robbed. In certain volume situations he die can be free if your a good customer er with certain sales thru. Sure you have to have a "billet' sized run to b economical but it depends on you press/billet size and! Extruder relationship. As for stiffness well that! Depends on alloy choice, section design and post extruding treatment. Right now in Europe, there is alloy being extruded that is as strong and as light as carbon tube. Sure most alloy rigs are outdated but if you all have the same, in your class, then who cares eg Y88.... ... unlike the 930 class.... Not.... they cannot have class racing without handicaps. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Where,s the edit button.? Link to post Share on other sites
JK 28 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I'll try and respond to all your points JP: No point using overseas examples for what's happening in NZ. Because we are so different? In NZ acceptance of Carbon rigs in boats under 20 feet is low accept where they are forced by local and overseas class governance. So, if the Starling provide the option of a Starling mast the uptake will not be low! The main reason people do not switch is purely the cost v benefit. I would switch for cost and benefit. If the alloy mast breaks and is replaced with another alloy one, it has the same chance of breaking again as the one it replaced. Sure if you want performance it's a No brainer. But cruiser racer types will stay alloy until carbon is cheaper. In the case of the Starling they are only interested in racing, however the carbon mast has been designed for strength and similar bend characteristics to the alloy one. Then what happens the with starling will be the same as happened with P's. The change will come and only the people who can afford it will get them then this will create a two class within a class issue where there are alloy rigs v carbon and this in turn will see class numbers drop and then the inevitable A and B division. There is already Green/Silver/Gold divisions, the additional cost of a carbon mast would add little to the cost of a top boat, that bird has already flown. Just look at the numbers drop off in fleets that introduced carbon rigs after having alloy. Figures? Every time people (generally manufacturer) lobby for a change they introduce a cost that not all can afford. In the case of the Starlings this is being pushed by the parents/sailors. Y11,s and the keel changes has rooted that class. Fibreglass p,s killed numbers. Fibreglass P's offered the option of easier maintenance. The Opti's are easier for Learn to Sail & the kids like to race in large numbers with the carrot of overseas events. The Y88 is populars because of one thing.... it has not changed and thus it is affordable to a wider range of people. As opposed to the Ross 930 which, while being. Nice boat, is now a fleet of mavericks. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 WE will agree to disagree on this jk. Let see what happens. And yes nz is way different to Europe/America. Just look at the 650 fleet in N Z compared to France. By the way... FYI http://www.6kcycles.com/pages/6k-cycles ... -seatposts And Kaiser metals, among others, are playing with a new grade that is lighter and stiffer than Carbon. Also Titanium is lighter than carbon but not as strong. But in the future a hybrid may change this and carbon could be old tech Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 A. Metal that is 100x lighter than polystyrene.... May be one day?... http://today.uci.edu/news/2011/11/nr_li ... 111117.php Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Re above. No edit option ... Titanium reads lithium Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 You need to build a boat JP. Put all these good ideas to use. Then all you'll have a heap of first hand experience to refer to in these posts Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 You need to build a boat JP. Put all these good ideas to use. Then all you'll have a heap of first hand experience to refer to in these posts Built plenty of boats and boat bits, plus masts, booms and worked in the alloy industry for a number of years. Built may Carbon components, for all my boats, as well as some quite exotic titanium and alloy stuff too. Technology is moving faster than ever and Hybrid tecnologies even more so. Link to post Share on other sites
Kiteroa 8 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I mean build a NZ Mini 6.5. The class needs someone like you to kick it off. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I would rather just buy one these days. thats why i am interested in where Gracefulswan is and how his boat progressed. appears all the others were suffering from short arms and long pockets. ... i would be prepared to either make/help make/help fund a hull and deck mould and then get some hulls out there at cost. that, i believe, would get people going... and cheaply. people can then do what they like under the rules. If someone did the keel engineering cheap that is half the battle won! if you could get a hull and deck (just basic GRP) and keel out to the people for say $12-18k i think it would fly? if two guys shared the cost and there were two series of races for each owner then the price is halved immediately. and as such is more attractive. if you could make it strict one design so all are the same and include things like only two winches, one set of sails every 3 years... it would be cheap, clean, and easy fun. also no moorings but craned onto racks or trailed up onto hardstand then racked..... but i guess the whole thing has been exhausted based on this thread. Link to post Share on other sites
samin 0 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Would an 8.5 Class Multihull cost more or less than a mini 650 to build/ have built? I would have built a mini if my missus hadn't insisted whatever we build be realistically "cruisable". (and the fact going 6 knots upwind doesnt really excite me in the slightest.......) I guess my point of view on this thread... having only read a few of the 1000 or so posts is if you want a boat you either have money, or know how/hands on. If you cant afford the cash, or the time then go sail for someone else... Link to post Share on other sites
samin 0 Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 should be a new mini on the water in the next year or 3...although a class illegal one at that... what happened? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Would an 8.5 Class Multihull cost more or less than a mini 650 to build/ have built? I would have built a mini if my missus hadn't insisted whatever we build be realistically "cruisable". (and the fact going 6 knots upwind doesnt really excite me in the slightest.......) I guess my point of view on this thread... having only read a few of the 1000 or so posts is if you want a boat you either have money, or know how/hands on. If you cant afford the cash, or the time then go sail for someone else... Yip, thats it in a nutshell. i see that second hand ones in Europe can go for 30K (euros) http://www.minitransat650.com/simple/in ... pic=5495.0 even 6000 pounds for some older english ones. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 make that 16k (euro) ... keep rising mr NZD http://www.minitransat650.com/simple/in ... pic=4065.0 Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.