Am I hyper sensitive to Epoxy /Solvents?

[Zozza 293]

I suspect I am sensitive to epoxies and solvents used in boatbuilding - and I am not even a boatbuilders backside! Let me explain;

About 6 years ago I helped a mate with basic glassing and sanding his epoxy built boat. And I mean real basic, and just for two weeks.

One morning during this period I woke up and my face had broken out in a red rash, and most embarrassing of all, my Johnson became red and swollen. Obviously I had got the stuff on my hands, so when I went to the loo I obviously got some on "that" part of the anatomy.

Jokes aside, it was alarming. I went to the doc, he gave me a steroid cream which worked wonders and in a few days both my face and the my package were back to normal.

 

I am currently having some major alterations done to my own little keeler. And while she is wooden built (strip planked), again there is now glassing with epoxy use going on and lots of sanding. I have not been involved because the construction work is beyond the scope of my skills. However, the last couple times I have been to the boat just for a look around at the progress, well I have come back home the next morning and the exposed areas, being my forearms and face, have an itchy burning feeling which I find myself scratching.

 

Last week it lasted it a couple days after a boat visit, then almost went away, but I was up the boat yesterday, and again this early morning as I type this, I have itchy skin, with a slight burning feeling to my forearms and parts of my face - but nothing like the outbreak from 6 years ago when I direct contact with the stuff. My forearms and face were the only two exposed parts of my body - I was wearing a t-shirt and jeans yesterday.

 

It sounds to me like my initial exposure 6 years ago was enough to give me hyper sensitisation, and now even the stuff in the air contacting the exposed parts of my skin is enough to set of an itch reaction just from being in the same workshop where the stuff has been used.

I have read it can take some people years to get sensitised to these solvents, and others - like me it seems - only one or two direct contacts can do it.

 

I am supposed to go help with some of the finishing starting next week. Is there a good barrier cream I can use that might help? I don't really want to be wearing long sleeves and a balaclava in the heat of summer.

 

Anyone else with experiences like mine? What is really annoying is me doing some of the finishing was going to help save me some money, but if just the sh*t in the air is enough to 'set me off' then one can only imagine what might happen if I start being involved in sanding and painting from next week.

[wheels 543]

It could also be that your current itchyness is actually the fine Glass fibre aggravating your skin and not a reaction to the Epoxy.

If it is the Epoxy however, it is a common complaint for many. It is also really quite weird that one person can get covered in the stuff with no problem and another become so sensitive to it that they become a disfigured mess by just looking at it. I have a friend that reacted just like you by simply walking into the boat yard where there was Sanding and Glassing going on.

The issue lies with the Amine in the Hardener. It can cause major allergic reactions and a person tends to get more and more sensitised with exposure. Once Epoxy is fully cured(talking many days maybe) the dust problems don't tend to be an issue on the Skin. So sanding old Epoxy should not be an issue and any itching is probably the Glass fibres. I hate the stuff, but some don't seem to be worried. They reckon you get used to the fibres, but I don't.

Epoxies that have a high mix ratio tend to be worse at causing Skin reactions. So 2:1 ratios are the least aggressive and a 5:1 tends to be the most aggressive. Also poorly mixed resin (poorly measured ratio or not stirred thoroughly) can cause non cured Amine to be "rich" in the Dust.

Personally I suggest stay away from it if you are like that. The thing is, you only see the external result of a reaction. Chances are there are internals reacting also, especially the Stomach. If you really do need to get involved, rug up as much as you can. Dust mask, disposable Overalls with a hood, Gloves and watch where you get your hands

[TimW 1]

It's actually really common to get sensitised to Epoxy and with some people it is as instant as it was with you.

Working as a boat builder for the past 20 or more years I have seen around 4 guys who had to leave on their first day due to this and probably 10 or more affected in their first week.

And over the course of many months it is more common again.

 

Good news though is that it used to happen way worse than it does now and certainly direct contact is the major instigator but a few are just affected by the fumes ( this has only happened when confined in a very small space).

 

The worst product I recall was when I first started and contained both amine and phenol and is a dark brown hardener. It was very agressive and affected the most people.

 

Now you can get much less invasive Epoxies and by use of Barrier cream, good gloves, suits , aprons and even forearm plastic covers the problem can be managed.

 

In your case you need to find the type your guy has used.

You can find the active ingredients of the Epoxy on the Msds usually available online.

Then seek out a different Epoxy with most likely less amine in it.

My advice is to phone Adhesive Technologies they haves range of suitable products and have dealt with this problem for many years.

[Zozza 293]

Thanks Tim and Wheels.

 

The thing about this current affliction is that there really is no red rash or anything. Ok - if I give it a real good scratch then of course that will leave a red mark, but it really is just the itch and slight burning feeling that is annoying.

It is currently not even on the same planet reaction wise compared to the original affliction 6 years ago when I looked liked a disfigured monster for a few days until the steroid cream cured me.

 

I wonder if there is something in what Wheels is saying in that rather than it being epoxy it might be the sanded fibre-glass fibres this time round.

 

I think I do need to go and do a day of sanding - properly protected - and see how I react, otherwise I am going to be wondering what the hell this all about.

I mean it might not be related to the boat at all - but I have no insect bites, and it is just too coincidental that the only areas of my body not covered are the areas with this irritating itch, and that it seems to happen after a boat visit, last a few days, then seem to re-ignite after a boat visit.

[wheels 543]

Of course, scratching will only aggravate a reaction. I was told a Cold Shower was good, because, as the theory went, the pores close up. I never found it to work. I never found a Cold shower to work for the other recommended purpose either.

I too got badly affected by Epoxy and am now sensitized to just about anything. My Hands react terribly to Handcleaners and I have to use Cortisol creams to keep the contact dermatitis in control.

If it is simply itchy dust, disposable overalls should protect you and you can get several uses out of a set before you need to discard. Disposables are best because they are a good barrier where as cloth overalls let the dust right through. Still better than nothing though.

[Guest]

+1 on above.

 

Working with "glass fibres" is another Asbestos scenario that at has not been exposed to the health sector in this country.

 

Itching comes from the fibre being stuck in your skin and it is a known irritant. This is made worse by the fact it "micro scratches the skin and allows epoxies/thinners... into the skin.

 

If you are allergic then you have two options...

 

A. Walk away or...

 

B. Take precautions.

 

Cover up. Hooded suits, skin cream, face mask...

 

Go to vinyl ester? Phenols, and inparticular Amines are known to cause issues (derma issues) Poly Amide cured epoxies are safer

 

I have seen many people sanding boats and inhaling the fibres. These guys will have lung and throat issues late on.

 

Some people just cannot go into a room with epoxies without a reaction.

 

From experience some brands are worse than other,s but I suspect this is because they are used by more people.

[Guest]

like Tim said there are a few that are wildly affected by it, I personally have seen some horrid results. you could try an antihistamine as well ( razine or similar )

 

re the shower - the best results ive experienced is get into a tepid shower, that means not hot or cold, you want your pores not to open, or close. wash your self, then turn up the heat so your pores open sweating out the leftovers so to speak, washing again.

 

hopping into a cold shower after grinding/sanding fibre glass can trap the tiny fibres in your pores/skin and cause more discomfort, especially when you get dressed afterwards

[Zozza 293]

Thanks guys for all your replies.

Here is an update: I phoned the fella whom built my boat many years ago, because he has built many boats since, a lot of them using modern methods.

 

He himself is not epoxy sensitive, but he told me his wife helped him build their catamaran years ago, and she had a reaction - he asked me if I had especially itchy eyelids? - and yes, I do!

Turns out this was the first clue for his wife also, when she developed itchy eyelids first, followed by other parts of her skin. He reckons it almost certainly is a reaction to the hardener.

 

So there you have it. One bad episode years ago, and it seems I now can't go near the stuff while it is hardening unless I am fully covered up with a barrier cream greased face.

[waikiore 398]

Having worked supplying this material to boatbuilders for many years, I feel that it is likely to be the glass fibres in the first instance, unless that is if you have red hair, for I always noticed that if anyone was affected the red heads were first-- and I am being serious - the same applies to painting with isocyanate cured paints.

Wheels is largely correct apart from his mix ratio claims which are wildly off. Anyway good advice is to lather up in Barrier cream then coveralls and gloves before going near the project. Yes is hot and uncomfortable, but only for a short time, then go for a swim in the sea to get rid of the sweat and barrier cream, you will feel great and the job will be done. Or pay someone to do it and reinforce that they have to vacuum up and wash down when finished, therefore removing any amine blush or other irritants.

[TimW 1]

One of NZ largest resin suppliers have recently changed

Their mix ratio and removed Phenol from their Epoxy.

This is to make a more user friendly product.

 

If in your case you are specifically allergic to either

Phenol or Amine or possibly it's the smell of the

Combination that sets it off.

 

It can be that what ever you reacted to

6 years ago was absorbed through your skin

Even minor traces of your allergens might set it off again.

 

You can get tested.

I am fair skinned and had trouble with certain

Paints and was badly affected by A30 resin ( which is no longer

Made but contained both Amine and fair amount of Phenol).

Since being more careful and since manufacturers have made better products and staying away from confined spaces with products I know I react to I have managed to stay in the Boatbuilding/mast making field for 25 years

[wheels 543]

Wheels is largely correct apart from his mix ratio claims which are wildly off.

As in the higher mix ratios being more nasty? You will find that is well documented information.

[TimW 1]

In the case of West System comparing Fast with Slow.

A lot of people unaffected with slow or super slow are affected by fast.

One difference is in the colour.

Fast is a darkish brown

Slow is a lighter yellow.

 

Perhaps this is no longer true but the reason

That Fast is darker is the presence of Phenol.

Using the fast hardener creates an ectothermic more quickly that gives off nasty fumes

Personally that sets my sinus off

 

My understanding is that it may not be the ratio

Of the hardener but rather the speed of the reaction.

 

Slower systems like Catalyctic cure systems and prepreg resins are much much less of a problem I'm quite sure about that

[wheels 543]

I may be wrong here, this is just my own assumptions from looking at the various Amine groups, but our Bodies also use specific groups of Amines and it just happens that one them is Histamine, which of course is a Chemical used in the control of Allergic Reactions in the Body. There are a lot of different Amine Groups, but they are all very similar chemically and I expect that Amine in the Hardeners are why we tend to get such reactions with our Bodies. Also Amine in Hardeners is a derivative of Ammonia and that is nasty stuff to our Bodies in itself.

[Zozza 293]

I may be wrong here, this is just my own assumptions from looking at the various Amine groups, but our Bodies also use specific groups of Amines and it just happens that one them is Histamine, which of course is a Chemical used in the control of Allergic Reactions in the Body. There are a lot of different Amine Groups, but they are all very similar chemically and I expect that Amine in the Hardeners are why we tend to get such reactions with our Bodies. Also Amine in Hardeners is a derivative of Ammonia and that is nasty stuff to our Bodies in itself.

 

Well, I went to the doc today, and he has me on antihistamine pills, and an ointment called 'Locoid' which is some sort of a hydrocortisone cream for the affected areas.

He said I should be ok to visit the boat if properly covered up, and to take a anti-histamine pill a couple hours before a visit.

He thinks I should not get involved in any close quarters work.

[wheels 543]

Did he give you any "base" cream for the Locoid? The local Chemist makes it up. It's a simple Mineral oil and glycerine and what have you. You wipe that on first, then the Locoid. It helps control the Locoid in both application and absorption, making the Locoid much more effective and you use less of it. I have to use Locoid pretty much every day. Also due to being poisoned by Epoxy many years ago and some years later, severely reacting to Solder Fumes. Made a mess of me. I will never forget walking into the Chemist, hardly being able to see out of my swollen eye lids and the Girl at the Counter exclaimed in slight shock/horror, "Gasp, you look awful!".

[Kiteroa 8]

I've seen some really bad reactions also, from what would seem like a very minor and brief exposure. Then there are other guys who swim in the stuff and seem to be fine. I'm susceptible to itching if I'm exposed to the fibre, and only get epoxy on my skin by accident. My policy has always been to work super clean. Fortunately Southern Spars, where I've done most of my composite work, is very clean these days, so it's not such a problem. It's more in the garage at home where the setup isn't so good. But I just cover up head to toe whenever there's dust around. If I end up ichy I take an antihistamine and that helps a lot.

 

But you do have to treat epoxy and fibre as the next asbestos, cause it probably it. Not so much the cured course particles, but sanding and cutting semi-cured laminate, in its hard but before post cure state. That would have to be the worst thing you can expose yourself to in my opinion.

[wheels 543]

That would have to be the worst thing you can expose yourself to in my opinion.

No there is one worse. The fumes from Epoxy if it gets too hot and smokes. Those fumes/smoke can make you really really ill. Not just "I don't feel so good, I think I'll skip lunch" ill, but major "poke you in the eyes and mess you up real good" ill.

[Zozza 293]

Did he give you any "base" cream for the Locoid? The local Chemist makes it up. It's a simple Mineral oil and glycerine and what have you. You wipe that on first, then the Locoid. It helps control the Locoid in both application and absorption, making the Locoid much more effective and you use less of it. I have to use Locoid pretty much every day. Also due to being poisoned by Epoxy many years ago and some years later, severely reacting to Solder Fumes. Made a mess of me. I will never forget walking into the Chemist, hardly being able to see out of my swollen eye lids and the Girl at the Counter exclaimed in slight shock/horror, "Gasp, you look awful!".

 

Heck, Wheels, you have been through the mill with this stuff. My sympathies.

You really have to use locoid every day?!

 

No, he mentioned nothing about a base cream. Locoid and anti-histamine are the same treatment he gave me in 2006 - which was eight years ago not the six I thought - and he said it will do the job again this time. My reaction this time is not even on the same planet as 2006, probably because I have not been directly involved in any of the work.

Back then I too looked like a swollen mess. I haven't been near the stuff since then, not because of avoidance, but because of no need to - I am not in the industry, Only reason I was near the stuff again this time is because of my new-to-me but 2nd hand yacht going into a boat-builders workshop for an alteration / refit.

 

I have my fingers crossed that my exposure hasn't laid the ground work for some weird disease years down the track.

 

But I look at it like this - just because your body doesn't react to something doesn't mean it isn't doing you harm.

Maybe those of us whom react and have to stay away from this stuff are the lucky ones - who knows what harm this stuff has done / is doing to people whom don't have a reaction.....someone mentioned in this thread this stuff could be on a par with asbestos. Scary.

[Zozza 293]

One of NZ largest resin suppliers have recently changed

Their mix ratio and removed Phenol from their Epoxy.

This is to make a more user friendly product.

 

If in your case you are specifically allergic to either

Phenol or Amine or possibly it's the smell of the

Combination that sets it off.

 

It can be that what ever you reacted to

6 years ago was absorbed through your skin

Even minor traces of your allergens might set it off again.

 

You can get tested.

I am fair skinned and had trouble with certain

Paints and was badly affected by A30 resin ( which is no longer

Made but contained both Amine and fair amount of Phenol).

Since being more careful and since manufacturers have made better products and staying away from confined spaces with products I know I react to I have managed to stay in the Boatbuilding/mast making field for 25 years

 

If it were just the fumes, then wouldn't my whole body be affected? It is only my face and arms which just happened to be the only parts of my body exposed.

Or maybe you mean that as my face and arms were exposed last time, then I only need a sniff of the stuff for my arms and face to "break out" again, as it were, whether they are covered or not?

 

I am blue eyed, and light skinned, and if I had hair (shaved it when it started disappearing a few years ago!) it would be sandy/dark blonde. I too read online doing research on this, that gingers are more prone to reactions - so while not a ginger, I guess I am a close cousin genetically wise.

[wheels 543]

Heck, Wheels, you have been through the mill with this stuff. My sympathies.

You really have to use locoid every day?!

When I first got sick with the stuff, they put me on Steriods for about 6 to 8 months. Horrible stuff, but it worked really well. When I stopped, I went straight back to problems, so I went back on the Steroids and then very gradually tapered them off and that seemed to work.

The big issue I have today is that I am sensitised to many things and Hand Cleaners are bad for my hands. Some Hand cleaners are worse than others, but all of them eventually cause my hands to break out in itchy rashes and I can only control it with the Locoid. I try to keep anything harsh as far away from any other part of my body, like Face etc, as much as I can.

I only have to get a slight wiff of Dust and my nose and Sinuses become so block it is horrible and I wash my nose out every night with a Saline solution to ensure I get a good nights sleep. I have a constant shortness of breath, often coughing up stuff and have to suck on an Inhaler every now and then if I feel my breathing get real bad.