Fogg
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Posts posted by Fogg
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12 minutes ago, Sabre said:
Yes and TNZ is a brand. A good public image is something most brands protect at all costs.
Only if a good ‘clean’ brand is worth something. And they’ve discovered TNZ’s brand is apparently worth $99m in the NZ market but could be worth a lot more overseas. Nobody to blame for that - just reality.
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48 minutes ago, Black Panther said:
OK they are negotiating a deal. If I were the other party (nz govt) at this point I would say sorry that offer is now off the table, good luck.
Well usually these kinds of negotiations involve an offer with either an expiry date or “The offer is there if you change your mind and want to come back.” Withdrawing the offer immediately is unusual (or petulant) behaviour. Not that that would concern TNZ - they would already have some idea via the back channels what other offers might be out there.
I checked and Spain invested over $3 billion to make Valencia happen. Which kind of puts into perspective both TNZ’s request for ‘only’ $200m and the Govt offer of $99m.
I’m not saying TNZ should have asked (or settled) for less or the NZ Givt should have offered more.
I’m just saying that going offshore is probably an unfortunate but inevitable outcome for which I don’t blame nor harbour any resentment.
Unlike some folk here who think someone must be wrong or bad or greedy just because you don’t like the way this movie might end.
Maybe nobody is actually wrong or greedy here - have you considered that as a possibility?
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27 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:
Or Peter Jackson, or Tourism NZ, or any other business that sticks its hand out and says "We need more $$$ but there will be a byproduct return ot the country".
The problem TNZ now have is of their own making though - the NZ bit in the name. Whether it was a primary purpose or not, the strongly implied message was "we are doing this for the country - winning will provide a return to NZ". They traded on that and the jingoistic stuff that goes with it, and it should be no surprise if Mr and Mrs J Public feel a bit shafted.
And I have some sympathy for that. After all, there are many many flaws with a free-market model the likes of which we are seeing play out here. But nobidy said it would be clean & perfect.
And the argument about “halo effect for NZ” is simply a reasonable negotiating tactic for TNZ (or any other team) negotiating a fee. The govt / donor of that fee can choose to believe it or disregard it. We’re talking big boys’ & girls’ games here.
And of course the reality is that when we are talking about multi-million dollar games like this there are no such things as “implied contracts”. There’s either a hard contract or none at all. And TNZ / Dalton have never pretended it’s any other way - they’ve always been brutally honest about the commercial realities of their sport.-
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20 minutes ago, waikiore said:
Wow, maybe negotiate the best outcome for their backpocket not country Fogg.
I’m prepared to be proven wrong on this. So can you show me where it’s written that TNZ’s primary purpose / mission statement is to promote the interests of this country? I thought they were a sport team trying to win a trophy? Which as a by-product might create a nice halo effect for NZ. A bit like the All Blacks in that regard.
But I thought there were other bodies whose role was promoting NZ’s interests eg government ones?
Did I miss something and does TNZ have a different purpose now?
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When you use giveaway terms like ‘blackmail’ you make it obvious you’re not looking at this objectively. So in your book anybody trying to legally negotiate the best commercial outcome they can for their side / team is performing a criminal act. Your bias here against free markets isn’t even subtle!
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Again, I’m not following. It’s the public that creates this money. Where else do you think it comes from - the fairies?
Even after the Spanish invested billions into the event they regarded it as such a massive commercial success that they paid bonuses ‘dividends’ to the teams after the event. That came from money the public spent on the viewing spectacle.
It’s like saying all footballers are rich pricks. Some earn huge and some don’t. But it comes from a combination of corporate sponsorship and the public appetite to spend. Why single out sailing as the only ‘rich pricks’ when other sports are also full of them.
I’d call that selective discrimination / conscious bias.
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2 hours ago, Black Panther said:
Meanwhile
So why are you the Internet arguing with idiots like me when the sailing is that good?! 😊
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1 minute ago, marinheiro said:
and I seem to recall part of the deal was a "tax free " zone in the area where the teams were located, with enough space conveniently available for Berty to build on of his pharmacy plants
Possibly. I recall Spain / Valencia put a lot of money into the event both for infrastructure investment and fees to Alinghi + teams. Like lots. Like billions.
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31 minutes ago, waikiore said:
BP he did specifically mention the hosting fee, as opposed to operational costs so you are on the right track.
I’m not following you guys.
The hosting fee is not a cost to TNZ but a payment to them by the host city. That’s what the $99m Govt offer to TNZ is. And they’re saying it’s not all cash but part cash and part benefits-in-kind like free rental of the HQ.
Whatever you want to call it TNZ is saying they want / need much more cash from the host city on top of whatever sponsorships they get to fund their overall campaign.
Alinghi invented the hosting fee concept when they decided not to defend the AC on Lake Geneva but take it to another city / country (Valencia) who paid them a hosting fee. So TNZ wouldn’t be the first team to choose to defend away from home - all be it for different reasons to Alinghi.
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55 minutes ago, Black Panther said:
I thought the argument was not the cost of the campaigns (those guys have bottomless pockets), but the cost of hosting. You know, the 100m Dalton wants from the taxpayers.
As an aside I wonder if any of the decision makers read Dalton s reply to OSH before saying no .
I thought it’s more about the operational cost of running the team (inc salaries) rather than hosting costs as those are helped by a combination of the benefits-in-kind package from the Govt / Council plus reuse of infrastructure built last time. Apparently a lot of the $99m they were offered is not cash but benefits-in-kind (I haven’t seen the exact % figure) such as use of the viaduct HQ. But that isn’t cash that can be used for paying real operational costs.
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1 hour ago, Black Panther said:
Care to explain?
Sarcasm!
TP52 is a 20yr+ old design concept with offshore racing origins which broadened into regatta formats. Very successful but polar opposite concept to the AC which is about bleeding-edge innovation which generates new designs each cycle that literally make you gasp and think “That’s outrageous - it will never work!” and they they go and prove you wrong and make it work. Don’t conflate the two concepts (which have very different purposes) to suit the Auckland budget.
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11 minutes ago, Black Panther said:
I like the idea of TP 52s.
Either way the winner sets the rules. So have it here, do the best we can, and if we loose congratulate the new winner.
That would be a great idea - if it was 2001.
If you want to see TP52s go and watch their World Champs or Super Series.
But don’t try to put the AC genie back into the bottle.
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I’m as disappointed as anyone else. Despite my belief that you get a better view from a screen than the spectator fleet it’s great to have the ‘buzz’ of a big event in town for so long.
But I’m also pragmatic and I’d rather the world remembers Auckland for last hosting a great AC36 than a lame-duck AC37.
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3 minutes ago, Leftred said:
Indeed. I know it's a business and that there are no friends only cash etc, but I'd be fuming if I was the Labour Government. Considering the flak they took for the border exemptions and the cash pumped into the campaign, I'd have thought that there was almost an implied contract that a non-COVID Am Cup defence in Auckland would help pay back some of the promised economic benefit.
Plus I want to see that J boat regatta that was planned for this year's cup.
Yes it would have been spectacular to see some J-boats in action. Maybe we still will. This might be a tactic of brinkmanship by ETNZ / Dalton to 'scare' some form of local syndicate of corporates / philanthropists / lotto winners to top up the Govt offer to try to keep it here. I think that's an outside chance but still a chance. Dalton said as much.
But there's no such thing as an 'implied contract' in this game. This is high-stakes big-boys & girls stuff not gentlemen's agreements to 'do the right thing'. The Govt would (or should) have know that their previous donation was never a guarantee of a follow-on event in Auckland - unless they made that a stated condition last time around - which they obviously didn't. So they can't complain that market forces are in play again this time.
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22 minutes ago, waikiore said:
Thats your world Fogg, but dont call it Team NZ or give public money , a TP52 based event would bring an exciting defenders series heaps of challengers and supporting superyachts here. We would get a whole summer of quality racing and the spin off, of course there would be no need for multi million $ CEOs either.
If you want a TP52 event then hold a TP52 event. But don’t pretend it’s the AC. Imagine the worldwide reaction if we seriously announced the next event would be TP52s doing harbour racing. You’d hear the world laughing from here.
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58 minutes ago, aardvarkash10 said:
As I understand it, one problem they are trying to address is loss of experience ie crew leaving to bigger offers from other syndicates. This takes money.
Money requires big sponsors.
Big sponsors want lots of eyeballs and hype.
We are too small, too far away for sponsors to see that value.
These issues apply to all the teams to some extent. Sponsors far prefer a northern hemisphere location for issues of exposure.
Its the same drivers as why we no longer have international rally rounds here in NZ, our rugby team is becoming an american product, our golfers play overseas our eventers live overseas etc etc.
The AC has moved significantly from what it was and is heading overseas - get used to it.
Correct. It has out-grown NZ’s ability to host it. Which is sad for NZers but an inevitable by-product of its success.
History would not be kind to NZ if we tried to hold onto it in Auckland by artificially putting the brakes on scale of innovation - the T52 idea is laughable after the foiling monos.
AC has come of age and needs to fly the nest. Best thing we can do is recognise that and hope to stay in the innovation race and keep our name on the mug wherever it happens.
And if you want to watch it then livestream. Be honest - even the spectator fleet had minimal view of the action and everyone on the water was watching their devices to see what was actually happening anyway.
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Bayswater ok
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Those Lagoon issues are totally unrelated to the hurricane damage. Everyone knows that including Lagoon. Which is why they are sh!t scared about the publicity from Parlay Revival’s channel and offering to help him.
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And for something different…. A friend with a Riviera 47 tells me that at his usual cruising rpm (~1800 I believe) he gets 18kts clean but is down to 14kts dirty.
No idea what the purpose of your study is but obviously the relative impact of dirty bottoms on fossil fuel usage (aka running costs) and carbon emissions is vastly greater with launches than wirh yachts.
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No stats on current boat but 2 boats ago (AC - 35ft) with Yanmar 27hp at 2500 rpm I would do 5kts dirty and 6kts clean.
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Yes I used to own White Pointer’s sister ship “Aily’s Comet” (now “C McGuire” - go figure?!). Same size and cedar core glasses construction but slightly more cruising oriented with masthead rig not fractional. Was an amazing cruising boat for me for 15yrs and I did some crazy things in AC but she looked after me and my family & friends incredibly. I never raced seriously but in the odd cruising race we left any of the Lotuses for dead (9.2 / 9.5 / 10.6) and we used to keep the Farr 1020s and 1106s honest.
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HMC turned this into this in 5 days
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Fundraising NZ leg of solo sailor's global circumnavigation:
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The Cup is gone
in MarineTalk
Posted
I’m not sure if the actual NZ Govt offer itself expired or the period of exclusivity expired - meaning TNZ can now actively engage in discussions with others and try to do better?