crump
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Posts posted by crump
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Yes way more boat, significantly more ongoing cost with size of sails, berth costs etc too, unfortunately.
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A bit of a tangent off the current Coastal Classic 2020 discussion going on.
What's at the opposite end of the bankroll from the big boys who actually got a boat home in the CC this year? I've sold the D28 and am missing my crew, the progress we were making, and those summer evenings on the water. I had a serious look at the Y88 class which has a lot going for it but is another step up in price. If I sacrifice the cruising side what's the most race fun we can have on the smallest possible budget?
Requirements:
- Ideal crew 3 - 4?
- Budget price, low ongoing costs to keep mid fleet race boat going.
- Kiwi DIY friendly for repairs etc. i.e. not a carbon fibre monster I can't touch.
- Active fleet to race / compare against / learn from.
- Mix of racing styles, short form, longer events, short handed etc.
Pied Piper seems like the most obvious contender, especially since we're based on the North Shore in Auckland. Anything else I'm missing?
Are there any active trailer sailor classes around? Will one of the smaller Elliot boats fit the bill?
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Before selling the Davidson 28 (which has gone to a lovely young couple down in Napier) I did the math on a CC race just for a laugh. Reckoned we could finish before cutoff given ideal weather the whole way up but anything else would be hopeless. It's pretty hard to set up an event that long that caters to everyone from the ocean racing crew down to the bottom end with the piedys etc.
Currently sitting on the cash pondering it should go to a house deposit or more boat shenanigans. 🤑
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53 minutes ago, Plato said:
Could you set a symmetrical the same way as the MPS on the Davidson above?
In light wind as the wind comes forward to the beam (and maybe a touch higher depending) you can move the pole forward and dip it down a touch to flatten the luff. At that point you are very close to flying the symmetrical tacked down as like an asym. It is unlikely to go as well as a gennaker cut for that purpose though it will depend on how the sail is designed as there are different variations on spinnakers.
The symmetrical spinnaker we fly on the Davidson above is a much fuller cut with big shoulders up high. That's a lot of sail hanging out the leeward side in a less than ideal shape. It is really designed to fly symmetrically in front of the boat in a big full "bubble" shape. This is a pic of a Cavlier 28 which is the same hull as the Davidson above:
All that said, there's not too much you can do wrong if you choose a nice 5kt summers day and give yourself plenty of space, try it out! We've have on occasion run the MPS on a pole like a symmetrical as we didn't have another sail on board. It looks stupid but if you really need to get downwind it works-ish.
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This is escalating quickly, there's a couple of Ross 1066's on TradeMe that look good fun too...
Honestly right now I'm planning to list my boat, sail with some other crews, and go kayak fishing while I think it over.
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I have an 8ft dinghy I've been building for over a year... so I understand 😅
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Just now, Knot Me... maybe said:
There maybe a Beale 33 coming up shortly. Owner had plans, got crook, they didn't happen.
From what I'm hearing it may go for a bit of a 'just need it gone' type price.
I'm definitely keeping an eye open. I've had a couple of people through my boat so we'll see how that goes first, what I definitely don't want is two boats at once!
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40 minutes ago, Jon said:
Speaking of which
When was the last time your 930 yacht sailed or do you prefer them on the back lawn ?
Which engine type is better for trolling? 🙄
Had a peek at a Lidgard Demon 10 too. Lots of options.
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Yup, fortunately I've been through one boat already so have a little more idea what I'm looking at.
Just to head off the impending debate... yes I'm aware both the diesel and outboard both have their pros and cons 😄
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11 minutes ago, Young Entertainer said:
if you want the security of a solid boat with ability to race and keep up, budget allowing go for a 1020, will do both well, better cruising boat than an 88 due to its volume yet still plenty to race with and being class boats only need a couple of sails
I'm having budget conversation now. Not many 1020's on the market currently, any idea of typical price range?
I don't hear much about the Beale 33 but there a couple active on racetrack at least. Where do they sit in the scheme of things?
(Yes I'm exploring all options up and down the budget range. Looking for a boat I can commit to for a good few years now)
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3 hours ago, raz88 said:
One other point going back to the original post - the whiting 29 that's come up in your racetrack search is a slow one.
Ah cool, that was just the class rating off this page: http://racetrack.org.nz/select_class.php. Thanks for all the thoughts in your posts here too.
Comment on the pricing of Y88's was just after looking at TradeMe. Maybe they are being a bit optimistic there? They seem like a nice fit for what I want to do without taking the budget way up.
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5 hours ago, Knot Me... maybe said:
Is that a centercase still in Ballistic?
If you think she is open mine would come as a shock. A photo taken from the same place would look just the same as long as you removed the case, galley, cupboards, nav station, shelves, light fitting, wood trim, squabs, warning sign, leecloths, lectronics panel, 50% of the dome nuts and widen the gap between the bunk fronts a fair bit. You can leave the paint and windows.....and add in some substantial ribs around the top of the keel plus a slightly bigger box under the bulkhead opening which contains part of our MMBU system and a small bilge pump.
I do like that wood trim, it finishes it off so much nicer than my seafog on seafog on seafog. I have considered throwing some clashing on for the aesthetics but never found the time.
Sounds like the way Scarlet is currently. Seafog sounds heavy though.
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2 hours ago, Deep Purple said:
Yeah but then they can do this, coastal 2014, our very average 930 half an hour in front of the first S34 and 2 hours in front of the first Y88 and look at the boats behind us....
I'd be lying if I said I hadn't shared a couple of these vids with the crew for "inspiration". Imagine how far behind the D28 would be! 😄
Here's the thing though, I only have a couple of years sailing under my belt and I have the most keel boat racing experience out of my crew. My crew pool is a couple dinghy sailors, a couple of solid cruisers, and a mix of new sailors. They are all doing great and are an awesome bunch to sail with but we're still building basic competence with things like the kite work, race starts and so on. I want to move up a generation so we're actually in the race and myself and the crew can grow, but honestly I think a hotted up 930 is going to be more race boat that we can do justice for now. Am I wrong?
The other side is that half my time on the boat is spent with my kids or newbie crew that I'm teaching. The D28 may be slow but she's pretty confidence inspiring and she's well kitted out to make people feel at home. Currently I sail a newbie crew on Saturday and we putt about making fancy coffee and have beer cooling in the freezer. I can sail it solo while my kids devour all the snacks downstairs. On Sunday the race crew arrives and we sail hard and fast... well... it's all relative! 😅 Well also have fancy things like the ability to stand to wash your hands in the bathroom and a door which might seem excessive but the girls seem to like.
Scarlet (and I presume the other competitive 930's) is very small up front, and stripped just about naked for racing at the moment. I'm just not going to run the boat like that most of the time. If I could run two boats then sure... that 930 blasting downwind looks aaaaawesome. I think I'm going to have to compromise though!
That said, I've never actually sailed on one so maybe I'm wrong. The things I have been on for points of reference include my D28, the squadron's Elliot 7 and MRX fleets, Wagstaff 40, Ross 1066, Sunburst, and a scattering of other boats.
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Definitely looks a bit tidier inside than the other 930's I've seen Splat. Photos are always tricky of course!
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7 hours ago, Tamure said:
I think the main question you need to ask yourself is what’s more important, cruising or racing. 1020 or S34 best of both, 930 more race/sportboat style, 88 good for both but a bit dearer.
So I had a look at Scarlet which helped a lot. I can see why she's quick and would be a lot of fun but I think I'd miss the more comfortable space of my D28. She has things like functional headroom through to the head room etc. I think I'm going to list my boat, give it time, and start saving for something a bit more balanced like the S34 and keep looking around.
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BTW you are all great and all the boats coming up here are good suggestions to consider, thanks! The main thing will be figuring out what to do with the current boat...
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Where does the performance come from? E.g. a Young 88 is only marginally longer than a Davidson 28 and not vastly different in sail area but rates significantly higher in performance. Data lists it at almost half the weight I guess. It doesn't have the waterline length but rates similar to a Stewart 34 in race performance?
I see both these boats claiming 20kts downwind at times which is fairly unimaginable to us. I have dug up a much bigger spinnaker for us to cause trouble with now but we haven't seen its upper end yet.
Both the Y88 and Stew34 are fairly high on my desirable list. And no one is convincing me to campaign the D28 for a coastal? Aww 😄
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1 hour ago, crump said:
Any comment on the different 930 setups and what I should care about in that space? E.g. one of these boats has standard keel and prod, the other an extended keel but no prod?
I'll answer that myself by having a read of this 32 page thread... lots of info on all the different keels, though maybe not an terribly satisfying conclusion!
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3 hours ago, Deep Purple said:
Scarlett fever or start me up. $25g or less and all the racing you could ever need
Any comment on the different 930 setups and what I should care about in that space? E.g. one of these boats has standard keel and prod, the other an extended keel but no prod?
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2 minutes ago, Deep Purple said:
Scarlett fever or start me up. $25g or less and all the racing you could ever need
Yeah blimmin heck those seem like a lot of race for the money.
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Short version: Invest more in the Davidson 28, or hold off and plan on an upgrade?
Long Version:
I bought my first yacht, a Davidson 28, in April 2018 after spending a year or two training and crewing on boats down at Westhaven. Since then I've gone from totally green to... well I can dock without embarrassing myself now! We are based at Hobsonville/WestPark marina.
The boat has been great. I've cruised up as far as Whangaroa, sailed with my kids and a lot of friends, and am on my second race season with CCYC and an established pool of crew members. It's safe and reliable and for a first boat I really can't fault it. I didn't entirely know what I wanted to do with the boat when I bought it but it's become clear that the racing is a bit of a bug and something I'd like to go further in. Here comes the dilemma.
While we've improved a great deal and are starting to perform more consistently, there's no escaping the fact that there aren't many boats around us in the same performance range. We are last on elapsed every race by quite a margin (excusing those that hit a sandbank...) though starting to come in better on handicap. There is very definitely a list of crew work and racing experience to work on but there is also money that needs to be put in to sails, rigging and other gear to have it in race condition.
The question is do I continue to invest money in the boat to make it perform to handicap and plan on keeping it longer term, or do I put that on hold and start planning to move on? The things I would like to do are:
- Continued regular club racing.
- Some involvement further up the harbour (RYC etc).
- SSANZ Triple Series (2021 and beyond).
- Coastal Classic (2021 and beyond).
- More cruising, especially Barrier, BOI etc.
The goals are very much engagement and experience building. Here are a few RaceTrack class ratings for comparison (I can't find a D28 with an active PHRF to compare):
- Tracker, 0.6161
- Davidson 28, 0.6192
- Whiting 29, 0.6204
- Noelex 22, 0.6218
- Noelex 25, 0.6321
- Pied Piper, 0.6515
- Marauder, 0.6787
- Young 88, 0.7509
SSANZ has a couple of boats in our range though not many so that seems doable. The lowest I can see in last years Coastal is a Marauder and we'd trail that by a good margin. The time it takes us to get from Hobsonville to the harbour entrance doesn't go unnoticed either and makes weekend cruising fairly limited. The math on VMG against the tide is especially rough on the slower boats!
If I moved on I'd be looking for something with an active class around me to compare against and take notes from. Something that puts us in the fun part of the fleet where my crew can feel a little more engaged with the race scene. Something that can get a bit of boogie on downwind wouldn't hurt either!
I'm a bit torn as I love my boat but not sure it's going to do what I want. All advice and ideas welcome.
Cheers
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Here are a few pics of the D28 for comparison. Note these are not all on the same day, though it's fairly similar light shifty harbour conditions which we often end up sailing in.
I'd be keen to hear any suggestions on trim, anything you'd do differently, and any thoughts on what a more modern sail shape would look like in comparison.
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With a lone entry in Baltic 1 so far! Was hoping for a bit more life there as I'm planning to be in it next year.
There are a heap of cheap older boats people could get in to to start racing there, have those interested just moved on to bigger things?
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For wind range in light air I can usually run it around 80 - 150 degrees apparent, less if I'm not paying pretty close attention to it. Bring tack line in tighter to sail high, ease our a foot or two to sail deep. Keep easing that sheet.
It's definitely happiest on the beam but then isn't everything?
Best budget keelboat racing around? Piedy?
in RaceTalk
Posted
Sounds like there are a few more options outside of Auckland where there's too much money sitting around! Good on the them but I need to buy a house too.
I'm going to talk to a couple of people about a possible syndicate and see what comes up. Lots of good thoughts here from the truly budget through to the Y88, 930's etc which are a step up in price but a lot more boat. Thanks.