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2flit

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Posts posted by 2flit

  1. Used this starting about ?? fifteen or more years ago. I would say that it performs similarly to other products on the market, which is to say that it is not a wonder cure-all but does work. If you want to try a squirt of it on something,... I have a bit of this and we are hauled in Whangarei. PM me if you are near by and want to try it.

    LPS-3 seems to serve a different purpose with it's thick tacky film.

    This product has been around for so long that if it was as amazing as the marketing implies.... all North Americans would be using it.... they certainly are not. 

  2. I believe that there is no clear resolution to this mater. How or why these cracks appeared remains highly uncertain in my mind. In a situation like this there is not a clear answer.  I am satisfied with the understanding that there could have been many contributing factors. 

    Thank-you for the advise, time and knowledge this forum provides.

  3. 14 hours ago, Psyche said:

    I have seen hairline cracks like that in similar positions near windows on glass boats, Ive just put it down to flex over time eventually cracking the bog. Its easy to fall in the trap of coincidence but correlation does not mean causation. These cracks could have been there unnoticed for some time and the work just gave the final nudge for them to surface.  All panels flex can especially around empty windows frames, what we know is that the laminate is good so structurally everything is ok, its just the fairing that failed. Also the fact that only those rear stb frames (??) are faulty would tend to indicate that the particular area is vulnerable to movement or an issue with the original build otherwise one would expect similar faults on the other lights in a random pattern. The other thing you mentioned is the  high quality work of the yard in general, there has to be some trust in their opinion of what the fault is. Overall its a minor repair unless you are expecting an entire interior repaint, that would get complicated.

    The entire starboard side was  badly affected (equally front and rear). The port side hardly at all.  I remind you that the yard worker was notified of the crack just a short time after he started in on the port side. Then Later after putting the wrong sealant (Tube says "Must not be used on Polycarbonate" , and then removing it all a second time there was absolutely no change in the cracking what-so-ever. It's just plain weird - because if there was some inherent weakness in the hull structure- then this should have shown up by a worsening of the situation.

    We have been living in that space for four straight years.... basically 24 hours a day. In a space the size of some peoples closets. We have wiped those surfaces down innumerable times in the last few years to avoid mold and clean.  These are surfaces that are inches away from where we have spent hours a day. It is inconceivable that 'we just didn't notice' them. Please give us that much credit. We aren't idiots that are oblivious to our immediate surroundings.  Please don't persists in some unfounded notion here about preexisting hairline cracks.

    So it does appear these all showed up at once and apparently over the course of a few days near the end on what has grown into a five month haul out.   Maybe that just happens. 

  4. 9 hours ago, Psyche said:

    Was the sealant removed with a vibrating tool?

    Yes, At the very beginning the sealant was removed with a Fein tool, the blade used was for removing deck caulk a(this has a small razor sharpened hook at its end).... but  everyone says the cracks did not show up until four months later  -  after the grooved out area was being prepped for the new sealant.

  5. 9 hours ago, wheels said:

     

    Let me put it another way. There is absolutely no way someone could do this scrapping the sealant away from the substrate.
    Does the crack run deep enough to go right through the Glass cloth, or is it just the surface Paint or whatever it is?
    The places the cracks show are most certainly around the edges of the heavy build up areas. This certainly suggests a difference in movement of two differing components below.
    Are you absolutely sure the interior is Polyurathane?? It certainly looks more like Gelcoat or Flowcoat to me.
    I did not realise the Boat was 22yrs old. That age, it is a wonder you do not have far more cracking. These Hulls are subject to lots of stress and movement. I would suggest the cracks were there before hand and you likely have no noticed.

    Are you replacing the windows?? Do not use Polycarbonate. Use Acrylic if you want to remain with light weight. Polycarbonate loses 50% of it's strength per year. Glass is stronger, lasts forever and Sealants adhere far better, but much heavier of course. Acrylics and Polycarbonates require very specialised adhesives to ensure long term fix to the substrate.

    Hi Wheels,

    The crack does not go thru the inner skin.

    The lead yard guy insists that he would have seen these cracks just several days beforehand because they were closely inspecting the area about 5 cm away because there worker had located the heater vent fairing in the wrong location and were attempting to figure out how to resolve this.  There were three other folks closely inspecting the area without noticing them. They were not there days beforehand.... It is certainly very odd.

    Yes I am 100% sure the interior is two-pack poly. I have the receipts for the paint purchased from Fisheries Supply in Seattle.

    As too being surprised that there aren't cracks everywhere....Yep... Ian Farrier said it was the "best built" of all the F36/39 hulls he had seen. Ian was paid to supervise the construction when he had an office in Bellingham.  He advised  me many times before he passed away. There is absolutely no cracking anywhere else in this boat (inside of outside) This is true even in highly stressed areas around the 'water stay/strut chain plates and akas. The build was paid for by a fortune 500 CEO/owner. As an example 2,000 man-hours were on the job sheet for just fairing/sanding the interior alone.

    We have already chosen Polycarbonate , so that train has left the station.

     

  6. 9 hours ago, Psyche said:

    Sounds like flexing, if so it's probably unavoidable.

    Except the caulk AND the windows were removed four years ago without incident?

    This time it was only the groove of caulk around the window margins to allow for painting, the windows were not ripped out when this happened

  7. 18 hours ago, wheels said:

    I have seen this kind of thing before.
    Firstly, it is not structural.
    Nor is it the fault of the Yard/person working on the windows. They are correct that it is a build issue, but in saying that, it is not due to poor build quality as such.
    Basically what is happening is the Gelcoat has cracked at a point were two substrates have an ever so slight different rate of expansion when heating/cooling. Or one part flexing not quite so much as the other due to Hull movement. We are talking only fractional amounts, but enough to cause stress cracks like this. Note that the cracks are around the beefed up areas the windows are fitted into.
    Inside the Glass will likely be some other filler material to increase the thickness. They don't tend to just add extra layers of glass when doing this. Often it is either plywood or foam. Then glassed over. The result is that there is a point where the expansion and contraction is different and it stresses the Gelcoat. Gelcoat is actualy very brittle.
    If the cracks are right through the glass itself, this will be due to cloth being too light. This is the reason why when glassing over ply, you should use a minimum of 600oz glass cloth. Anything lighter can split due to expansion of the Ply underneath just from the heat of the day. Even in situations when Epoxy has been used. It will split the coth clean open if not heavy enough.

    Moisture is another one that can cause a similar thing. Moisture will cause the Ply to swell a little. Or heat from very hot dry sunny days may even cause it to shrink. It only takes the slightest little pinhole or whatever for the moisture to get in or out and cause the ply to change shape enough to put stress on the Gelcoat/Glass cloth. Especially as the Gelcoat ages and becomes more brittle.
    And one last scenario on that is when the windows were removed, did that allow exposure of whatever material is beneath. Just enough to change the moisture content.
    It is even possible that the work carried out may have flexed the window areas a little, causing the cracks to appear. But only due to the stress already being there and they would have appeared eventually anyway. It is no real fault of the Worker as such. Normally you should be able to pound on a hull and not have cracks appear.
    The repair should also be fairly easy to carry out. Just as has been done in the picture. A light grind back, fill, a layer of glass if the crack is through the glass, due to as I described above and then repaint. I suggest repaint with a two pot Urathane. Polyurathanes are flexible and will move with the substrates and will never crack on you.

    The only real way of not ever having such happening, is to layer up glass till the required thickness is achieved. But that is not something a designer/builder of such a speed machine would want. They want to reduce weight as much as they can. Hence the lighter fill materials they tend to use. Plus they often want something in there to screw into as well. Ply is good for that.

    I hope that helps, even if it does mean you might have to wear the cost. At least it may give you greater confidence in the yard.

    Let's see...

    There is No Gel Coat on this hull, it's all epoxy and polyeurathane paint systems.

    There is fiberglass boat cloth under the 'glass'

    I postulate that if your theory were correct then we would have seen some indication of cracks appearing more gradually over time in the last few years... (Not over the course of a 1/2 hour while caulk was being scraped)

     

     

     

  8. On 28/02/2022 at 4:28 PM, harrytom said:

    Is it possible with the heat we have been having of late,shrunk the bog or no glass in frame the heat has caused a bit of warping??

    The windows have seen far more heat in the past. Besides, the boat is inside a paint shed and there is no direct insolation. 

  9. On 28/02/2022 at 11:24 AM, Island Time said:

    Most boats now use only adhesive for window fasteners, including offshore boats. Modern adhesives can be stronger than the laminates they attach to. But your boat, your call.

    Yes ... but the 'modern' adhesives that were used January 2018 failed... I am very glad we had the bolts thru the polycarbonate. 

    And while on the subject of thru bolting the glass... The windows have used thru-bolts for 22 years and the polycarbonate has never cracked, so the point stressing issue seems moot to me.

  10. 1 hour ago, Psyche said:

    Thats my thoughts, a bit of flexing when removing the windows especially in light of this comment

     

    Could have initiated the cracks by weakening the bog and the subsequent removal exacerbated it?

    Yet there were no cracks until Feb 2022, This after a previous window removal  three more haul outs including 3 months on the hard while all sorts of deck work went on, an overland transport, sailing in 7+ meter seas 45kn gusting 80kn to weather, and all sorts of 'stresses' ... So why suddenly and just only now and everywhere and all at once?

  11. 1 hour ago, Island Time said:

    IMO it is an old technique to through bolt the windows. Bolts are where the leaks start, and often crack acrylic  windows, and sometimes toughened glass. This is because of the differences in expansion/contraction of the window compared to the frame/mounting surface. Bog to cover bolt heads is not ideal, bog is often brittle and cracks when thickly applied - as it must be to cover a bolt head. It would not need to be much flex to cause this.

    Modern adhesives can be really hard to remove. I've done quite a few window replacements on different types of boats. Usually I remove the sealant with a multi tool, and sharp flat blade. Sometimes there is sufficient strength in the adhesive to pull off a laminate, care is required, and repairs and painting is often required. I usually remove the old bolts, glass up the holes, and go adhesive only. 

    Some window/cabin sides are thin - not ideal IMO, especially for a boat going offshore. Stiffening with bog is a poor idea, but unfortunately not that uncommon. 

    If this were my boat I would remove the internal bog and add a laminate as required. A thin layer of bog is OK for fairing only. Going to need paint to make it look nice, but if re glassing the inside, an internal false window frame (made from the additional laminate) can be used to give a paint line, making paint matching easier at the edge.

    Why did it happen? Maybe the original builder used a bog that was not sufficiently flexible, and the work to remove the windows/sealant caused sufficient vibration/flexing to crack it?

    Window were already removed in Jan 2018 with no ill effects. That caulk was firmly gripping the glass and hard to remove. Yet no perimeter cracks showed up at that time.

    The sealant only around the edges of the glass was removed in Oct 2021 to paint around the edges of the surround. The glass was removed this time (Feb 2022) because the seal behind the glass appeared loose in Feb 2022.

    We have been advised to reuse the fasteners and will do so. Never caused cracking of the glazing before and it probably saved us the last time around. I'm not heading around the world with my polycarbonate window only secured by silicone.

    We don't know why it cracked on the day the yard worker was scraping out the grove around the glass

     

  12. 12 minutes ago, Ex Machina said:

    I did a window replacement about a month ago . I was very surprised at how flexible the area around the window cut out was with the window removed . 

    I am taking a guess that the scraping force applied by the worker over 3 days  to remove the incorrect sealant flexed the laminate enough to crack the bog/filler on the inside of the window surround ? 

    The window surrounds are rather rigid and don't seem to flex easily. (we wound up removing all the windows on Thursday/Friday last week) because the sealant had loosened between the glazing and the ledger they sit in. This should not have happened either but I can see NO Way the yard could have caused this. With the windows now all removed.... the surrounds are very rigid and strong. The boat is exceptionally well built but still light and fast.

    The hull is 20mm thick except around the windows where it is much thicker due to the bog hiding the thru bolted Nuts.

    The cracks were first noted by my wife in January literally as the yard worker was doing further scraping as he prepared to install the incorrect caulk.  Aa he was working...He was called out on this by my wife. He then moved to the port side where there are hardly any cracks showing now... It is really hard to say that this is causation even though there was temporal correlation. This situation really is hard to sort out.

  13. General History Synopsys

     

    April 2001 Farrier F36/36 build (Cloudy Mountain Woodworks Bellingham, USA)

    Sept 2015 New all-carbon daggerboard fitted

    Winter 2016/17 Refit including new deck paint (indoors for 5 months)

    Oct 2017 depart Vancouver BC Canada

    Jan 2018 minor refit including window glazing replaced (Lexan + Dow 795). This installer seems to have had a very hard time removing the glazing but succeeded. (Note that the New Zealand Glazer says that if he installs the glazing then the next guy will literally tear the boat apart to get it out)

     Nov 2019 arrive New Zealand (via French Polynesia and Tonga)

     Sept 2021 Ordered Repaint in New Zealand, Painter informs us he should redo the decks to do a good top sides job due to over spray/technique. We agree to this

     October 2021painter informs us window silicone should be removed to do a good job, we agree to this. Fein Tool and razor knife used

    Dec 2021 topside paint mostly completed no cracks discovered at this time.

    Jan 2022 Yard does final clean of window surround caulk in preparation to re-silicone. Half way thru this my wife alerts worker to many cracks on starboard interior. Worker comes inside to look… says nothing and continues on to do port side window silicone clean out. Port side has very few/slight cracks now.

    Jan 2Yard installs new sealant

    Jan 2022 Wife reads tube of sealant used and clearly stated on tube “Must Not Be Used with Polycarbonate Glazing” We consult glazer who insist caulk should be removed, yard agrees. Employee spends three days removing the caulk he just put in. No further cracking is seen.

    Feb 2022, we hire a licensed marine surveyor to excavate and review the situation with the cracks. He says he “cannot determine the cause” but also says “He can find no other reason the cracks would have occurred but by way of the silicon removal” He notes that two distinct layers of bog join at the crack and one is porific the other is very smooth. These were used to cover nuts used to thru bolt the windows for security. He determines the crack is non-structural and the fiberglass layer underneath is fully intact.

    Feb 2022 Lead Yard man investigates the crack and says it is the fault of the original builder. We think this individual is very knowledgeable but also biased by his employment. He is the best boat repair man I have encountered in 45 odd years. You Kiwis are really excellent builders.

  14. 1 hour ago, CarpeDiem said:

    It is totally appropriate to ask for advice.

    You're not airing any grievances, (yet), those might become inappropriate especially if you're grievances are not based on facts and start slandering the boat yard. But you're a very long way from that with your current post. 

    Ps: I am not a moderator

    That said, 

    I would have a conversation with the yard first about your concerns.  Get there view. You've obviously already drawn an opinion so it would be good to get their view of it. 

    Then you might come back to us with your view and theirs and some people here might be able to throw more views in the pot. 

    When starting down these paths it's often always good to get things in writing, but that can put people on the defensive from the get go.

    A little known secret, is that covertly recording conversations in NZ is perfectly legal so long as the person doing the recording is a participant in the conversation. There is no legal requirement to inform the other participants.  Nb: a judge or disputes tribunal doesn't have to accept evidence obtained in this way... 

    I am not suggesting that this should be your starting position, just making you aware of it.

     

    We did all of the above  and also brought a licensed surveyor in to review the cracks. The yard does not concur with us. The relationship is still very good. 

    Here are four pictures of the cracks (two before grinding and two after grinding) and then three pictures showing the interior  work and quality prior. 

    I will try to post a highly annotated version of the history. This could get complicated and I am biased as the owner. What I am after is unvarnished impressions and advice in a situation where the yard has disagreed. The history will come next in a separate post following this. It will take me some time to condense to a 'forum worthy' brevity. Expect over an hour.

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  15. We are North Americans with a Canadian boat hauled in a New Zealand Yard being worked on indoors since 9/15/2021. Some cracks developed on the interior recently and we feel the yard could be partially responsible.

    Is it appropriate to ask advice on this forum as to how to handle this in New Zealand. Or is it just airing grievances to elaborate the situation, by asking advice about how to handle this?

    I'd prefer not to be bringing this up at all, maybe a moderator could suggest if it's appropriate?

  16. An update... so five months later we are now re-attaching the deck hardware. Things are extremely slow even though we work on it 5-1/2 to six days a week and have a full time  Norsand lead carpenter working along side us... Many hick-ups and slow downs. The most recent (all-he-it minor) is the electric winch (Harken 40.2 installed in 2016) the poor fellow has spent almost all of 3-1/2 days re-installing it and just this Saturday (Feb 12th) he had to pull it for the third or forth time since he started. It will be four man-days to install this winch before we are done. This time to grind the starboard base to cant the winch outboard to get it clear the underdeck fasteners on the new Karver 4-speed winch next door. It's been difficulties like this for two months running and the bills do pile up.

    We are at a bit of a low ebb at the moment with more recent and major pileup mistakes and issues that will hold us here for at least another month. 

     

    M at Work.jpg

  17. Portends to be Made in New Zealand: Fluid Film

    Has anyone used this stuff and if so which one? http://www.fluidfilm.co.nz/

    Fluid Film® is a lanolin based rust / corrosion preventive and lubricant that provides long term protection and lubrication for all metal surfaces. Fluid Film® locks out and displaces moisture while lubricating moving parts for extended periods of time. It will not be readily washed off with water, but creates a barrier of protection that continues to work even in the most corrosive of environments. Fluid Film® is the worldwide standard for corrosion protection and lubrication.

     

     

     

  18. We have 600 watts of Flexible PV on our Bimini and radar arch combined. Then another 200 watts in panels we bring out in badly overcast winter conditions. These we strap to the boom and rotate them for altitude adjustment, occasionally swinging the boom out for azimuth. Two of the radar arch modules are also adjustable for altitude and azimuth. They do not last anywhere near as long as glass fronted modules. (I've some experience here having installed more than a 1000 modules in mostly terrestrial applications but also occasionally marine) My advice is to never get a PET front sheet and to look for an ETFE front sheet. I would also pay a premium for SunPower Maxeon® Solar Cells which some manufactures use in their flex-modules. PM me if you have other questions glad to give you my contact phone.

  19. Nov 26 Update, 

    Norsand has been outstanding. The painters have been working on Saturdays to complete the project and make up for time lost to unexpected repairs at the start. I can't say enough positive things about Aaron who is leading the paint job. We hope to have the boat repainted early-mid December and the mast and boom afterwards. Hopefully we can start putting all the hardware back on. Melanie and I have spent the last few weeks passivating the stainless and re-polishing all the 316 SS. We think that if it took two weeks to remove that we can get everything back on in three weeks and be back in the water in 4-5 weeks post painting. That's just Melanie and I doing the work and we may get some yard help with this to speed the process up.

    I any event, I've got nothing but good things to say about Norsand and we are about 65% of the way to completion. Every marine job has unexpected turns and Norsand has handled them well. Pictures are first coat of epoxy primer

    Nov25th 2.jpg

    Nov 25th 1.jpg

    • Upvote 3
  20. The international boarder where we're from has these regulations. Explained here: https://www.bewhalewise.org/

    And the larger area with somewhat complicated zoning... 

    Restrictions have been in place for over a decade where I'm from and there may be allot to be learned by looking to how other areas have resolved these issues. Requiring boaters to stop their vessels when anywhere within a 300M zone is not common.

    Attachment-3-Overview-Map-1024x683.jpg

     

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