K4309
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Posts posted by K4309
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7 minutes ago, CarpeDiem said:
I have one of these for the anchor winch and a backup start battery.
The equalization applies if you are using it as a standby battery. It would sit on float for 6 months and then undertake a equalization charge.
You're using it as a cycle battery.
They don't provide a termination current but it's safe to assume 1amp.
Charge to 14.7 volts at a max current of 20a when the current drops to 1amp switch to a float charge of 13.8v
I don't float charge mine, I just switch off and let the battery sit. It's usually 12.9v after 2 weeks in winter. During summer it's generally 13v after 1 week.
Good luck finding a decent charger. You don't want to be over charging it and the solar could have that effect. Ideally you want the charger to turn off until the voltage drops to 12.7 and then restart. The problem with leaving the charger on float is when the sun goes down the charger can reset it's cycle and start again at 14.7v.
What charger do you have?
Thanks CD,
Is it the same Kijo lead carbon you have?
Your explanation is logical, although not clear on the data sheet.
We have an EPever 20amp solar controller. We have been investigating the exact issue you mention. Every day at sun up, the controller gives it 2 hrs of bulk charge, regardless of what the batt voltage was, then goes through to float. I had 180w solar onboard so it may have been getting 12 amps, but one panel shat itself (there is a theme here). After investigating a few things, I've just put a 20w panel on so I can float, but there is no risk of overcharging. I did that as I was concerned about the state of my batteries and a potentially high self discharge. Since then they have died.
I've investigating the Victron solar controller, which is sh*t loads better than the EPever. At sun-up, it checks the battery voltage and shortens the bulk phase appropriately. It also has the blutooth and app, so I can monitor everything from the phone, and programme or change settings on the controller. Only issue is a victron controller is $200 (15 amp), and a 20w panel was $40. I'm working through a bunch of other issues / questions with my electrical system so may still either ditch the solar float, or change controllers. I may get more solar panels to replace my dead ones, which may initiate upgrading the controller, or I may get better batteries and ditch the solar altogether. The old batts were flooded lead acid, hence the solar to top up, and the float charge.
If it turns out I need a DC-DC charger for my new batteries I'll probably get one that handles the solar directly as well. Get all charge sources through the one charger, and get one with blutooth so I can programme it easily and monitor it to ensure what I want to happen is actually happening.
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2 hours ago, Island Time said:
Hmm, seams to me they have some issues in translation. Charge voltage and equalization seem to be reversed.
Also the max Charge current of 30a is a problem for most charging systems. Normally battery internal resistance restricts Charge rate.
I'd be cautious of this battery. There are local suppliers of lead carbon, 120a/r for about $600, with local support and neither if these requirements.
Thanks IT,
This one is available from 2 local suppliers. Both providing 'support'. But so far they have struggled with a convincing answer on the above question, hence one is contacting / confirming with the manufacturer. He says they have good / responsive communications and is confident he can explain / answer my question.
But that said, what are these other lead carbon's you speak of?
My current thinking is to install 3 of the 100A/hrs in parallel to give me a 300A/hr bank. That will give a maximum charge current of 90a, and a recommended of 30a to 60a. We have a 70A alternator with a Balmar MC612 regulator. That restricts charge current to 75%, which is about 51a, which falls nicely within the 30-60a recommended charge range. (another reason we think these batts are suitable for our application).
I would not be surprised if the translation has swapped the cycle voltage with the equilise voltage. All of the other lead carbon's I've looked at have bulk charge voltages around 13.8 or 14.1 ish. They claim the lower resistance means they can be charged at lower voltages, which causes less wear on the positive plate. But then these batts charge the same as any other lead acid / agm. That does not make sense.
For any other lead carbon at 13.8v odd, I'd need a DC-DC charger. That adds a fair bit of cost, between $600 to $800. If I get a DC charger, then I may as well go whole hog and get lithiums. Hence why I am getting clarification of the charging regime (in writing, from the manufacturer) before I go ahead.
IT, another question: Lithium's need a DC-DC charger ran of the start batt. My understanding of the reasons is that the resistance is so low, if an alternator is un-regulated, it can pull too much current (no resistance from batt) and fry itself in minutes. Also, if the BMS trips out, you can blow a diode, as the alternator is putting out full amps, and then suddenly there is no-where for it to go. The other reason being the start battery has a completely different charging regime to lithium. If lead carbon batteries also have very low resistance, is there the same risk of pulling too much current out of an un-regulated alternator, and will the Balmar MC612 address that issue?
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Attached is the product data sheet.
I think the terms here may have different meanings to what we are used to. The supplier is asking the manufacturer in China to confirm my questions. I'm expecting a response on Monday, or early next week.
Aside from that, what gear do you use for a normal equilisation charge IT?
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How to make a bomb, and other battery charging questions.
What equipment do you use to give lead acid batteries an equilisation charge? Specifically a charger you can accurately specify the voltage and current so you don't make a bomb?
We currently have flooded lead acid batteries for the house bank, and they appear to have shat themselves, due to various reasons. We have never equalized them, despite the recommendation being to do it monthly. The main reason being all the other recommendations on how to do it safely and properly.
I'm now looking at new house batts that require an equilisation charge at 14.1v, while the bulk charge is 14.7v - they are lead carbon, and I have a query in with the supplier on the specifics of those charging requirements.
I can't use the alternator, because the start batt is in the same circuit. The solar controller has equilisation settings, but the equilisation voltage must be equal to or higher than the bulk charge (not lower than). That and solar isn't that reliable for specific current and time duration. Oh, and if I plan to do a specific charge, I also need it to be sunny. Based on last summer, that could be problematic.
And we don't have a mains powered battery charger at home that can do it. Ideally I want a digitally controlled charger where I can set the voltage and current (or at least ensure the current is within a correct range) and equalise the batteries properly, when I want to.
I haven't been able to find a suitable mains powered charger via google yet. Any recommendations?
An extension of the question, if I could get a DC powered charger that does the above, then I could isolate the house batts on the boat and give them an equalisation charge off the start batt with the alternator running. This would be super easy as I wouldn't have to take the batts home.
And just to make things difficult, it'd be good if this fancy battery charger doesn't cost more than the batteries...
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Councils send strongly worded letter, oh, and ask for money.
North Island councils combine in urgent call to govt for caulerpa support
North Island councils combine in urgent call to govt for caulerpa support | RNZ News
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It is surprising easy to bend perspex yourself. Just heat it up a bit (to less that 120 c I think, so it doesn't bubble) and bend it. That said, that is for 2 dimensional things like folds and curves. A 3D item like a dome would take a lot more work. I expect you'd need to make a mould, and would need a way of controlling the heat / temp accurately. So there would be benefits in getting the pros to do it.
I've discussed making perspex dodgers with one of these outfits. They actually use an old pizza oven to heat large / long sheets, then drape it over a mould / frame of the shape dodger I want. I was going to need to make the mould myself, the next step would be to build a plywood box over it (maybe insult with some pink batts, or even just old blankets, use a diesel heater and some cooking / meat probes and an IR thermometer, and try it out. The cost of perspex sheet itself isn't too bad, depending on thickness. And you can get cut to size / part sheets easily.
It would at least be worth asking about the cost, as it may be less than you think. That, and as zozza says, the chances of getting a second hand one that is in usable condition is likely very low.
Either that, or you could re-purpose either a shower dome, or one of those sky light / sunlight domes that go on the roof of a house. That could be a good solution.
Edit, they even have all the details on a web enquiry form, here:
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12 hours ago, Steve Pope said:
small problem of Altitude (if that is a useable term) one lives on the bottom, the other wants too float.
Yeah, I was just working on my spin abilities, trying to take two turds and come up with a shiny happy outcome.
Here is a thought / question. If it leaks, NRC are responsible for clean up? Lets assume it leaks slowly, i.e. not a catastrophic failure but small bits at a time. Does NRC have all the gear and resources to deal with it leaking slowly? i.e. booms, boats, dispersant, the marine equivalent of vacuum cleaners to gather it up etc?
And of course the monitoring programme in place to get across it before it lands on the Poor Knights?
Also, lets hope NRC are slightly more onto it than Auckland Council Civil Defence (cough) and have ran scenario's and exercises focusing on a Niagra spill.
Dealing with the oil in the wreck on the sea floor is technically challenging and high risk. But the risk of a spill is known, so all prior preparation would go a long way to minimising the impact on that pristine environment. The only major flaw in this approach is the weather of course. But it appears to be the only approach that is actionable.
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Hang on, wont the oil from the Niagra kill the caulerpa, and our caulerpa problem will be solved?
I work for the govt, and this is clearly infallible logic
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1 hour ago, Guest said:
Fair comment.
But at this point in time that if it’s going to stop you getting good holding it will most likely be in one of the notified areas and you shouldn’t be there. In future who knows. Small consolation, its not taxifolia!
What gets me also is the “throw it back” instead of instructions how to kill it and bin it.
Or just instructions on how to clean your anchor. The 'throw it back' assumes people can see it, and are inspecting their anchor and chain.
They say a tiny rhizom can spread and grow very quickly. You may not be able to see it, or may have a remote anchor control. So why not advise if we can use a washdown on the anchor and chain? Maybe a little spray bottle of bleach in the anchor locker? or dish-wash soap, or some other household cleaning product.
I read the divers at the barrier wash all their gear in a foaming soap wash, apparently that kills it. I'd be more than happy to keep a spray bottle (or even a barrel) of some household cleaner in my anchor locker, if I knew what one and that it would work in reducing the risk of my anchor shifting this caulerpa.
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6 minutes ago, Psyche said:
Go to the YNZ site and it eventually leads to MPI
See weed, chuck it straight back (updated February 2023) [PDF, 5.3 MB]
Caulerpa identification guide (February 2023) [PDF, 8.1 MB]
See weed, chuck it straight back – Summer campaign flyer [PDF, 2.9 MB]
Caulerpa brachypus and the Controlled Area Notice at Great Barrier Island [PDF, 2.5 MB]
Leaflet on Caulerpa brachypus and the Controlled Area Notice at Great Barrier Island [PDF, 4.2 MB]
Caulerpa – Great Barrier Island biosecurity response [PDF, 943 KB]
Caulerpa parvifolia and Caulerpa brachypus fact sheet 2022 [PDF, 342 KB]
That is a very good example of the basic issue with YNZ Psyche (at the risk of getting political).
They appear super capable with comms specialists. A weekly / fortnightly news-email with so many stories to read. But no actual advocacy. In your example, they have loads of content, but all from someone else.
Given their national status as representing boaties, I would like / expect them to release a Public Statement saying:
1) There is no evidence boaties have spread caulerpa (cause there is no evidence, it is just a theory)
2) It is just as likely it is from the aquarium trade, and
3) Publicly challenge the logic of an anchoring ban, on the basis the Omakiwi material has clearly been there undetected for a considerable time (MPI's own words), and / or if there is going to be widespread anchoring bans (cause the whole of the BoI will be banned come Christmas, then advocate for mooring bouys.
Question, did YNZ turn up to the great Hui in Rawhiti that agreed on this anchoring ban?
Rather than vent on here, I think I shall find out directly from YNZ.
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The easiest way to come up with a set of rudimentary polars is to get an ORC handicap certificate. The certificate comes with design polars for your boat. They aren't going to be as flash or accurate as the boat designers polars for a modern GP racer, but to enable basic weather routing for a middle aged NZ cruiser they are ideal.
I don't know what they cost now, I did mine about a decade ago, and it was maybe $100. Substantially cheaper than the nonsense with IRC.
The below link is a current certificate for a First 50 based in Aust. Shows you the level of detail you can get. Just type in the polar figures to Open CPN and you will be away with weather routing and what ever else you want to fiddle with using polars. Once you have a base set, you can refine it and improve the accuracy with open CPN I beleive. I never got to that level, I just used it for weather routing on predict wind.
ORC Certificate for 51ST Project
PS, these certs also give righting moment data (theoretical of course) that can be used for certain CAT certificates. I think I used this to get CAT 3 for my log of wood. Fairly sure you need better data for CAT 1, but the ORC cert can be handy for certain other issues, basically if you have an old cruiser and want to do the Coastal Classic / CAT 3.
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2 hours ago, Ex Machina said:
Well we already have YNZ .
That is my point. But aren't they only in charge of Olympic medals?
I guess I was using 'the lowest form of wit' to highlight the shortcommings of YNZ. Given the existential threat to hardstands and haulout facilities nationally, AYBA are doing the heavy lifting on that in Auckland, and they get something like $3.56 in my annual club subs, while YNZ get something like $40 or $50. Entirely ineffective organisation with a 'job for life' CEO.
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5 hours ago, Steve Pope said:
Guess as much as you like! We will never know! Though I think it well suits the Bureaucrats to blame yachties, we are a reasonably widely dispersed group, without a voice, or organisation, who would put their head above the breakwater to speak on our behalf.!!
If only we could get all our boating clubs to join together in some sort of Federation...
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On 4/06/2023 at 9:19 PM, Steve Pope said:
My thought was, purely and simply, here is something that we can actually do something about. Re the oil being wax like, there have been many reports over the years of an oil film on the surface, nah its just wax, Yeah right!!
Oh I fully agree.
That the govt f**ks around spending moonbeams trying to control nature, being all these invasive species, when they have something here with the Niagra that could actually control, but don't, because it doesn't fall within the remit of any of the govt silos.
These invasive species is just nature being nature. Things change, species come, species go. It is right up there with trying to control the weather. That is what everyone is trying to do with the whole concept of 'tackling climate change'
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What are you going to do with 8kW on a boat? Light up the Sky Tower?
The biggest stereo and cocktail blender might nudge 3 or 4 kW max
Most batteries can't take more than 40 odd amps anyway
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3 hours ago, Steve Pope said:
The Niagara (ship) has re-appeared in the news once again, sunk in the 2nd world war in the Hauraki gulf (by a German mine) It was heading for Canada and was fully bunkered. Read "Stuff" article for much more detail. I would suggest that this is actually something that the Govt, NRC, ARC etc. could actually do something about, rather than spending their time pursuing (us). by doing a Don Quixote, tilting at windmills, in the form of Caulerpa and fan worms.
Ah, but oil from the Niagra is not a biosecurity incursion. So Biosecurity NZ aren't responsible.
And its nothing to do with Primary Industries, so the Ministry or Primary Industries aren't interested either.
Fairly sure that NRC aren't responsible UNTIL oil leaks. Until then, the oil is the responsibility of the ship owner. Oh, and as it was sunk in an act of war, insurance wont cover it.
So someone needs to trot off and find the ships owner, and convince them to salvage the oil before its too late. But as you see, our fractionated and siloed bureaucracy wont deal with it.
PS, I read somewhere ages ago, last time this came up, that the oil is supposed to be wax like, or very thick, and any attempt to salvage it is likely to substantially increase the risk of a disaster. Esp if they heat it to get it viscous. I think they are hoping it will just stay a guey blob on the bottom of the sea.
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6 hours ago, Lindsay said:
I’m not intending to anchor anywhere near the stuff. But if in a few years it spreads to every damn bay, and if it is no longer feasible to try and control the spread by implementing restrictions, the next question will be can anchors even penetrate it?
I wouldn't worry about it. I'm no expert, but I do like spear fishing and snorkelling around anchorages. Caulerpa (according to the photos) is a fine leafed algae. Not like echlonia which has thicker rubbery leaves (but not that big). echlonia is the sea weed that is brown / golden and has thick stalks about 1 to 2 feet long. Washes up after storms. Only grows on rocks so not an issue for anchoring.
I.e. caulerpa is the complete opposite of things like bull kelp that grow in thick, leathery leaves, the type of thing I imagine would stop an anchor pick setting into a sand or mud bottom. It appears to be more thin like a sea grass. I understand caulerpa forms thick balls or sausages. For this to stop anchoring, it would have to physically hold the anchor off the bottom. If you set your anchor, by backing down, I would expect the anchor pick (tip) to roll off a sausage and onto the sea floor. That, and I'd be really concerned if your anchor wasn't heavy enough to push through some salad on the sea floor. Caulerpa Brachypus is known as sea mustard.
Then, your type of anchor may influence things. The Excell has a downward facing pick (like a concord aircraft nose) AND has sharp blade like planes at the point, to dig in to shell type bottoms. These sharp blade like planes should cut through caulerpa easy. A plough style anchor, would be about as useless as the Labour govt (opps, not allowed to mention politics). But the presences of sea mustard isn't going to affect that. Refer to that legend Fish's photos of the plough V excel trial at Arkles.
If you back down and your anchor sets, it has set. Sleep well. If it doesn't set, you need to re-set it. If you don't back down on your anchor, you are a fool. Or you own a launch. Either way, I wouldn't worry about caulerpa affecting your anchor setting, provided you have a good anchor and know how to set it. The biggest issue is MPI banning anchoring, and I suspect, cleaning the sea mustard off your anchor every time you move.
Refer to the link for a photo of a 16kg #4 Excel anchor for what I'm twattling on about
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On 28/02/2019 at 9:10 AM, Fish said:
Photos kind of say it all really. Arkles Bay at low tide. Similar bottom to lots of spots around where I am in the Gulf.
I towed the plough up and down the beach in a figure 8. Didn't matter what I did, I couldn't get it to set.
Excel set immediately.
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4 hours ago, Lindsay said:
Anyone know if caulerpa makes it difficult to anchor?
Depends if there is a Controlled Area Notice in place or not.
If there is, it is very difficult to anchor.
Or, do you mean that if there is caulerpa present, is it hard to get your anchor to set?
Haven't tried it, due to the legal ramifications, but I've never had any issues when I've inadvertently anchored in sea-grass. Pulled up half a meadow last time But I am running a sarca-excel. They set extremely well, like backing down on a brick wall. Some legend called Fish did a trial once with an old plough and an Excel at Arkles Bay. It's posted around here somewhere. The plough wouldn't set at all (dragged up and down the beach). The excel set in 1 &1/2 times the anchor length, and wouldn't budge.
In short, if you have a good anchoring set up, I wouldn't worry about weed fouling it. If you are worried about weed fouling it, upgrade your anchoring set up. It will foul on a scollop shell if it is that bad.
Edit, here is the link to Fish's post on the anchor performance at Arkles
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Absolutely Steve,
The Barrier locals report seeing it there 5 years ago, they just didn't know what it was. Didn't sound like it had made any noticeable impact over that time in terms of the ecosystem collapsing. It was only 'discovered' there because a biologist was on holiday and put it on iNaturist, of which is posted to 6,000 times before (i.e. its his thing).
It was only 'discovered' in Rawhiti because Iwi individuals started doing patrols for it. By the shear number of locations found, it has clearly been there for a while. It wasn't transported on a single boat anchor in March, when we had 3 days of summer.
MPI have already confirmed there is no way to erradicate it. The question is what to do now?
In my view the worst move would be an anchoring and fishing ban.
If I were in charge, I'd do two things:
1) A massive education programme, focused on getting boaties and fisho's onboard, including trailer based fizz boats* (as opposed to ostracizing us). The guts of this would be how to recognise it, and how to clean your gear (anchors, fishing gear). Current MPI focus is on clean hulls, no mention of clean anchors... everyone thinks if they have a clean hull you are fine. Do you spray your anchor and chain with bleach? peroxide? urine? the ashes of juvenile kina harvested on the first day of the new moon?
2) Install public use moorings in the worst affect (and most popular) locations. Allow normal marine use, anchoring and fishing, but some pragmatic steps to slow the spread
Apparently it doesn't like light, and grows at between 25m and 47m. Those depths would explain why its gone undetected for so long. It also likes a bit of turbidity, i.e. poor viz. Obviously we've had 3 years of La Nina, with NE and shithouse conditions, include very poor viz. If we have a good El Nino, SW and hot sunny calms, the viz will improve (great for spear fishing), and the balance of the environment will shift against caulerpa. We have basically had 3 years of perfect conditions for it, including the marine heatwaves. It can also be damaged (cleared out) by major storms. So all we need is cold, clear, sunny conditions for a season or two, and we should see a retreat of caulerpa. Exactly the same was that fan worm doesn't like fresh water, this wet summer has really knocked the fan worm back.
In the mean time, I think it s a great solution for kina barrens, AND it absorbs nitrogen and phosphates from the water, i.e. improving water quality. If it re-populates all the kina barrens, we will probably end up with a net neutral ecological impact. But there is nothing we can do to influence this, we just have to sit tight.
*didymo and the South Island PR campaign to clean you fizz boat and not spread it from lake to lake is probably the best example of what I'm talking about that MPI need to do now. Fisho's anchor hundreds of times a trip (if they aren't soft baiting), and tow their boats all over the country for good weather and what ever fish is running. That, and there is easily 100 times more trailer boats in the country than keelers. So a social media campaign, signs at boat ramps and provision of washdown facilities, with specifics of how to clean your gear to kill or remove caulerpa. I've no idea how to do that at the moment.
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1 hour ago, Island Time said:
The spread, to so many destinations, to me makes it look like the weather and tides moved it, not a boat....
What?!?!
But that is not the official narrative!!!
The govt said it was boaties, and the govt has never, ever, ever, been wrong.
Ever.
Choke.
And besides, it doesn't matter what the truth is, cause the legacy media have already told Joe Public what to think. It was those rich, entitled, white, boaties. And nothing to do with the incompetent govt.
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So it's all over the BoI now. About another dozen or so sites confirmed to have it.
This is going to be a clusterfuck.
What are the odds that anchoring and fishing will be banned across the BoI this coming summer?
I'll start at 3:1
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1 hour ago, Ex Machina said:
We are under assault . Looks like the horse has truly bolted on this one .
I wouldn't worry about it. Tainui are in charge of the Waikato River now, and they will sort it out properly. None of this Colonialist govt departments and science and stuff.
Am I allowed to say that now? Its not politics or religion? (that part is a serious question)
Please advise if anyone spontaneously erupts by reading that post.
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Here is a question:
The good folk of the Barrier are known to be strongly independent. Some would say they are likely to have a deeper distrust of the government than most of us.
Noting it was an outsider that first reported the infestation in Blind Bay, the first thing MPI did was stop all the locals from fishing. Giving there is bugger all else to do on the barrier, and there isn't a Countdown, that can be a bit of a problem. After several hui MPI have let them fish in their own bays again with a bunch of rules. Effectively meaning they can only fish out of kayaks.
Knowing that MPI can't actually fix or remove the caulerpa, and that the most likely immediate outcome is they can't go fishing, do you think the Barrier locals would actually report more caulerpa if they saw it?
How to Make a Bomb
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What are some of the other options? The charging current is a key element for me, specifically faster charging. I could get two victron DC chargers, 30A each, but $800. We only have a 70a alternator, but the current batts aren't supposed to charge faster than 23 amps, so I can easily double the charging rate (safely, if I get the right batteries).
The other way to go is to change the start battery to the same chemistry as the new house batts. That may be cheaper than using DC chargers. Our anchor winch runs via the start batt, so I need to make sure there are no issues there (engine always running of course).