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Posts posted by wheels
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On 21/07/2022 at 12:34 PM, CarpeDiem said:
A battery is never really at rest. Even if nothing is connected to it and it is truly open circuit then it is still going through a chemical reaction and losing SoC.
More technically correct, the electrolyte is conductive, so when the battery is at reast, no load connected, the resistance of the conductive material causes it to self discharge.
On 21/07/2022 at 12:34 PM, CarpeDiem said:The purpose of float is to cover any parasitic loads and continually replace whatever the battery is losing naturally. For a typical AGM this is probably 13.2v @ 0.1A + parasitic loads.
It's more about keeping those plates up to full charge and overcoming the self discharge. Production of any energy is via the chemical reaction. As soon as a voltage source is removed and the battery begins to discharge via that internal resistance, the chemistry is such that sulphate is created. Maintaining a float charge stops that from happening. However, a battery can slowly deteriorate even when in a float charge due to another phenominum. Surface charge. When very small trickle currents are in play, the actual charge on the plate can be on the surface only. The Chemical reaction is not right through the plate. Deep cycle is prone to this due to having much thicker plates. A really good charger will have a Discharge mode. Once per week or month, the trickle charge will be stopped, a load will be applied by the Charger and then after a time, the charger will revert to charge and then trickle charge mode again. This ensures the depths of the plate are fully charged. If this is not carried out, it is not uncommon to have a battery test fully charged, but it loses charge quickly when put back not use again.
Be very wary of any chargers that state 7 stage. Stating such are nothing more than marketing ploys. It makes the charger sound better than one stating 3 stage. That is not to say all 7 stage chargers are junk. You need to read what is actually being covered in the stages of charging. Some stages on cheaper chargers are really pathetic and mean nothing at all.
The important stages are Bulk charge, Absorbtion charge, Float charge. Then if the charger is better than average, it might have the discharge/charge as an automatic stage as well. Then there is the Equalization stage. This is most important for FLA batteries. Most chargers emply that stage by manual selection. But some specialised chargers may have that as an automatic stage as well.
So tht all gives you 5 stages. If they want to talk that up a bit, you might find the discharge and recharge as two seperate stages. That makes 6. A few chargers have a desulphation stage to make 7. But that stage is a joke. It takes a dedicated specialised charger to do that job and even then, it does not always work.On 21/07/2022 at 12:34 PM, CarpeDiem said:By definition a charger is a parasitic load.
Ummmm, no. There should be no load at all. Especially if fully electronic.
On 21/07/2022 at 12:34 PM, CarpeDiem said:Float chargers sometimes float below the initial resting voltage of the battery (eg, 13. 1v). So this means the battery has to self discharge before there is a voltage differential.
Conversely float chargers often float above, eg 13.3v continuously trying to jam more power into battery.
Continuous-preservation (float) charging: 13.4 V for gelled electrolyte; 13.5 V for AGM (absorbed glass mat) and 13.8 V for flooded cells All voltages are at 20 °C
On 21/07/2022 at 12:34 PM, CarpeDiem said:The other problem with chargers permanently connected is AC ripples that affect the DC side. While we have very stable 230VAC in NZ a charger will end up sending some spikes into the battery which you'd only pick up with an oscilloscope. These microbursts can damage plates over the very long term.
Fully electronic chargers (Switch mode power supplies) do not suffer this. The 230V stage is completely isolated from the output stage. In fact most all SMPs today will accept an input voltage from 110V to 260V with no problem and no change to output at all and most certainly no AC spikes.
But then again, these desulphating chargers work by pulsing AC spikes into the battery. So I really cannot see how spikes would upset the battery in anyway. The battery is a pretty good buffer to anything that is within the normal range of charge current. -
I should expand on the sulphate part a little. Although it will not help in regards to the Optima AGM situation above. I thought maybe someone might get just a little more knowledge from the following, if they are interested.
If the Sulphate can no longer be reverted back to Plate material, the Plate is therefore diminished permanantly of that material and thus loses capacity in both Current and Storage.
With an FLA type battery, the Hard material sinks to the bottom of the battery container and builds up. Deep cycle designs allow for this by having a deeper area under the Plates. Once that material builds up to a point where it can contact the plates, it will short the battery out. This scenario is what is often seen on YouTube were someone will tip a battery upside down and flush it out, refill it and show an operating battery again. They have removed the short, but the Battery is pretty much useless, or soon will be. They never ever recover fully and the capacity and current is never shown. Just the Voltage which is telling nothing at all.
As for the AGM above, Capacity and Current tests will provide a lot more info on where the battery is now at. Voltage does not give you an entirely reliable test. One of the electronic battery testers will tell you a lot about the battery state. It will give a range of information that can be quite telling. Of course, if you can gain another couple of years or more of use from it, that is a major bonus when related to the expense of those batteries. The Optimas certainly are great at withstanding abuse. -
It will be interesting to see how long that result lasts.
The important point to understand is that Equalization charge is resulting in two very different things when it comes to FLA and GEL/AGM. With FLA, it is all about stirring up the Electrolyte via Gasification. Obviously that does not occur with AGM or GEL batteries.
There are two different forms of Sulphate. The first form is a soft Sulphate and is part of the natural battery chemistry. It forms in the surface of the plates as soon as discharge occurs. The Sulphate layer increases as the battery discharges deeper and deeper. This layer reverts back when the Battery is charging.
The second form is a hard Sulphate. It is something that occurs with time. The longer the battery remains in a discharge state, the harder some of that Sulphate becomes. Once it is hardened, it will not revert back to cycle in the normal battery Chemistry. Equalisation charging results in the this Sulphate breaking away from the plate surface and settling down to the bottom of the battery. Something that canot occur in a Battery like GEL or AGM. The result is that the Sulphate becomes an insulator between the Electrolyte and Plate. However, Equalisation charge can sometimes work away at the Sulphate and revert some of what would normally have settled to the bottom if an FLA and you can gain some of the Batteries performance back. It never comes back fully and is subject to self discharge far more. -
20 hours ago, Guest said:
The definition of "normal" output here is how % increase claims can be made
You have to understand how an ALT works in a normal situation and how one is controlled by an external reg. As I said above, there are two main ways of controlling.
In a non external reg situation, the ALT simply produces a continuous current into a battery. But as the Voltage rises, which is actually quite quickly, the current also quickly (proportionaly) drops. So the actual regulation is caused by the Battery load itself.
By using an external reg, the maximum output if the ALT is maintained no matter what the Voltage point of the Battery is. There are two ways of controlling the ALT in this situation.
First is to simply run the ALT at a full output mode and sense Battery Voltages. To ensure the bank does not overheat, a remote Temp sensor is used. Some cheaper units use a temp sensor inside the Reg and simply consider the Ambient temp only and allow a current to be produced by the ALT relating to the Ambient Temp, assuming the Bank is also at that Temp. The more technical Regs use a remote Temp sensor and are monitoring the Bank itself and will reduce the current to tailor the temp of the Bank. this stops the Bank form being overheated and boil.
Then the third way is to use a charge Algorithm and follow charge laws. If you go to the smart reg info, you will see among the info a picture of the waveform controlling the output of the ALT. It is a high frequency swtiching waveform and that switching complexity varies as the Voltage of the Bank rises. It does this till a threshold point is reached and the Reg then goes into an absorbtion charge for a set period of time and after that set period of time, the unit then triggers to a float charge.
It's simple in how it works and the proof is that it does work well.
Yes there are more complicated ways of doing it and there are units that use those more complex ways. But they are hugely more expensive. It is as simple as that. The Smart Reg does the job for a resonable price. You could spend 10x more and have a bank more accurately taken care of. But at the end of the day, I am not sure you will see a great deal more life from the bank.
On my Boat, I had the Heart Interface system using the LINK 2000 Charge controller. It was pretty much the first type of system that used the algorithm to charge a bank. The most important algorithm was Pukets Law. The only difference being that the user had to pre set many parameters of the Link to correctly charge the Bank based on the Battery manufacturers information. The system was Shore Power and Generator powered. I had no external ALT control at the time till the day I got the Smart reg. I found that the Smart reg took care of the Batteries just as well as the LINK system did without requiring all the minute details of paramateres having to be programmed into it.
I was friends with the designer of that Link system. He sent me the system all the way from the US free of charge. He taught me what I know about battery charging and he also showed me how to alter charge patterns to show me how paramaters like Temp and what not changed how a FLA accepted a charge. My only problem today is, with the more modern batteries available, I am slipping behind because I mostly know the old FLA scenarios.-
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12 hours ago, CarpeDiem said:
This isn't a claim the manufacturer of the ZM5 makes. This is your claim.
No it is not my Claim. Graeme has even demonstrated this to me on his test bed. It is not a claim that has been included within their information, however that does not make it false.
I will reword my above comment slightly. The output of the ALT can often be increased by upto 10% for many Alternators. But not all. It depends on the ALT. It is one main factor behind why Graeme suggests certain Alternators be used. -
On 30/06/2022 at 10:53 AM, CarpeDiem said:
That's smoke and mirrors.
However you're the one making the claims, not the manufacturer. They simply claim the unit works like any other non temperature sensed voltage regulator.
This unit is a perfect basic regulator that doesn't make any fanciful claims about its performance or capabilities. If I had a need for one, then I would certainly consider this unit.
So what didn't you understand from my comment? Yes it works like some of the non sensing regulators. Not many or all, but some.
There is an EPROM inside that has been programmed to control the charging.
Why is it cheap? because they have saved costs by not creating an exensive box. They are not trying to recover the many hrs of R&D. Craeme and Son has a regular job and the Reg is something they have spent many hrs of their own spare time on.
How do I know all this? because I have sat with Graeme for many hrs discussing the thing..... as well as many other subjects.
The real proof is that it works. It drives Alternators upto 10% above their normal output and the ALT is able to survive. Although they do suggest you use specific ALT's as not all are created equal in quality.
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OK, the first thing to understand is that there are two different ways to charge a battery. Either have a power supply that is somewhat "dumb" and the Temp sense and Voltage points, control the steps a charger changes stages at. Or the other way is, have an algorithm that more closely follows the charge Laws of Battery Chemistry's. The later is harder to do for all sorts of reasons and so the initial way is more the norm for most all manufactures.
Graeme is not the only one developing the Regulator. Graemes Son has done much of the physics and design of the algorithm they use. Many of you may not know, but Graeme's Son is a Scientist that works at the Cern Large Haydron Collider and they work together on the design when he has a lot of wating time during experiments. So the guy ain't no dummy.
Yes an Alternator in high output runs hot, but at the same time, switching the Alternator on and off at high frequency allows for the ALT to produce current with less on time. After playing with a controller, I have come to understand what is taking place. The MOSFET is not just turning the ALT full on and leaving it there and them ramping down as charge increases. It is doing some tricky switching.
Also to add, I don't have experience with Lithium, so my comments do not pertain to them. Only the Leadacid versions of Batteries.
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It doesn't need the temp sensors for either due to the algorithm. It is also how the thing can make the ALT produce more than it's rated current without cooking it.
Larger Banks.....well we have one here that is controlling a 140A ALT charging 1000AHrs of Battery Bank. -
Go to Graeme's website and you will find all the info on there along with large easy to see wiring diags.
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I have never seen Acetic Acid in the info for Salt Away. I had looked for the make up of it some years ago but could not find anything apart from detergent. The detergent could well be simply Glycol. In thius case, detergents act mainly as a " wetting" agent. Reducing surface tension and allowing the Water to " attach" to surfaces.
If acetic acid that is the case, I scratch my head as to how the "corrosion protectant" part is supposed to work.
Plus Acetic Acid is a poor choice for cleaning crud in Salt Envirnoments.
And in saying that, Phosphoric would work, but is not a lot better. Although there may well be other things helping it in Barnacle buster. Hydrochloric Acid is much the better choice. It is all about having spare Hydrogen Ions to break down Calcium deposits. Phosphoric, Oxalyic and Citric Acids are great for Iron deposits.
Correct that pure water is the best, but just tap water would have to be laden in minerals to not be effective. Water works in quite a unique way by the Chemistry of it. The charges of the Water Ions "pull apart" (disassociate) the Salt Ions. This is why so much Salt by volume can be dissolved into water by volume. The water is not dilluitng the Salt ions. This can be seen when you initially pour Salt into water, the water is cloudy for a short time. This is simple Dissolving. Then as you stir, the water clears. This is when the Salt ions have been disassociated from one another and bond to the Water ions. For Salt to come back out of water, the opposite has to occur. The Salt ions must have something with a stronger "charge" to associate with. This can occur with saturation of the water due to heat/time evaporating the water leaving the Salt behind. Once salt accumulates and hardens and maybe even associates with another mineral, it takes time to dissolve it again.
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Don't get fooled. There is no Chemical that will disolve Salt better than Clean fresh water. It is head and shoulders above any other Chemical. Forget the Chemical "Protectants" like Salt-away and all the rest. They are nothing but a detergent and actually do very little. Certainly nothing as good as plain ole fresh water. Those products are all a rip off because they are just simple cheap forms of a detergent that are sold as some special miracle Salt eliminator.
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Yes it is styrene used to thin. You can cheat by using Polyester liquid resin mixed into the filler. But Epoxy works even better.
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Insurance is becoming a big issue for many older boats, no matter what material built from. Then add in the reluctance of insuring on a swing mooring.
The "where can I get insurance" question is the main discussion I have on HFOA forum. There are only two places I can send people now. The Marina Shop in BOI. And Williams in Spain. The later I know nothing about and have heard some have had problems getting payment after mishaps. But apparently they insure with no questions asked. So if it is a case of needing isnurance to get into a Marina, but maybe never getting a pay out if Boat sinks, then that is an option.
Every other insurance company is either moving completely away from Boats or making it real tough and only looking at reasonably new. If you already have insurance, they usually continue to cover, but let the policy lapse just briefly and they will likely not allow you to take it up again. -
As soon as you move CG from Safety to Policing, everything changes.
Not saying that it would certainly follow the same here, but in both Oz and the US, the Coastguard have become a very harsh rules enforcement authority and not an organisation that is there for rescue, aid and education.
However, I do think that the NZ CG could be given a tooth or two at least and be able to enforce some laws. Although, the difficult part of that is the authorisation of CG people to be able to stop, board and enforce. It's not all that easy. People with such authority require special training. Not something you are going to get Volunteers doing.-
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It doesn't need to be a great cost....no. But that has never been the case with any form of rego in NZ. The problem is that whoever implements such a thing needs to be funded by it as well. There not as many Boats as there are Cars. So the cost is going to be overly expensive just to cover the infrustructure created to impliment it.
In every Country in the World that use Registration, that registration has been skewed over the years to do two things. Revenue gather and regulate rules etc that actually have nothing to do with what the Rego was initially created to do. Over years, the Suits simply see a means of using the rego system as something already established to tax other things Marine related.
For instance, we nearly had something like this here in Marlborough. The Port company wanted millions of dollars to put in "navigational systems" in the Sounds for Shipping. We now have Tide stations, Tracking and all sorts all for the Harbor Master and Commercial Shipping to get info that is already available else where. But it wa pushed as a safety thing. To fund it, they initially wanted to charge every boat owner that used the Sounds. Because there was no Rego system in situation, they could not find an easy way of doing so. In the end, all Commercial Vessels had a considerable fee imposed in them. -
Hempaspeed is a "Hydrogel" type AF. In other words, once in the water the surface becomes slimey/slippery to the touch. The idea came about due to the fact that Fish have a natural Hydrogel over their skin which prohibits Barnicles growing on them. Hempaspeed is designed to perform in a similar way.
Please keep the forum informed on how you find the performance of this.
As form smoothness, I have not used it myself, so cannot comment. It is designed to be applied by roller or brush, so I suspect that the type of roller might be important. One designed for applying Gloss top coats would likely be required. ie. Short Mohair.
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Spartite is a multi use pourable Urathane based Adhesive Sealant.
It is available in a Kit which comes with a boot, to be used as you say, for between Mast and Deck and is designed to "chock" the mast in position. It can also be used internally as a seal.
It is not the only Urathane bases Adhesive sealant available. Electrical Trade suppliers have a similar product for pouring aound cables to seal them. But I cannot say if it will be perfect for such a job, where as Spartite is purpose designed for the job.
The main issue of course will be adhearing to the aluminium when it is gong to be a corroded surface and near impossible to clean. I suggest perhaps an acid aluminium cleaner brushed in around the area and then a darn good rinse out and good dry before pouring in the sealant.
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Spartite is what you are looking for. A chandlery may sell it or ask a boat rigging business.
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Just the Kit? You mean a bag of plastic ball bearings and a couple of Races they sit in is $2K?
I believe that even though they are " sealed" some have found they can be pulled apart (although it could be the LS series, or Drum type furler) and a good clean and lubricate has fixed the issue for some. It's going to have to be removed to work on of course. Worth a look. Even if it is the LS series I have heard about, I see no reason why the Flatdeck can't be dismantled. Unless some part is swaged, my view is that if it went together, it must come apart. Then just replace the Delrin ball Bearings. -
Only problem with Chinese is ensuring the quality, specifically the UV quality of the material. The place I work out of are Canvas workers and they struggle big time compeating with Chinese made product. It is a fraction of the price. Often the fully finished Item retails less tht just their Buy price of the NZ supplied material. The difference is, if the item is for outside use, the customer might at best, get 18months from it. Usually it is severely faded in 6months and falling apart in 12. If it is something that is brought inside after use, they tend to get 3years from. Sadly the Chinese stuff is so cheap, that often the Customer prefers to replace with the same with the view of throwing it away in 12 to 18months, rather than pay 4 to 5 times the price. Of course the complexity of the job also comes into it. One of the big problem items is large deck unbrella's, which take a lot of material and time.
Anyway, I side tracked myself. What I am saying is beware of the quality of UV protection "Cheap" may give you. -
11 hours ago, bigal.nz said:
Time for a new genoa. Anyone care to recommend a place to get one?
She is a 12 ton (heavy) 40 footer. We don't race, very much cruisers with some off shore. More than likely just need something in Dacron, but so many options.
I don't want the gold plated solution, nor the cheapest, just good middle of the road product from a reputable supplier. Looks like these days you can do it online from an overseas loft, which I am not against either.
Thanks
How worn out is your old one, what is the size and how much would you want for it? Oh and is it furling?
I have a mate badly needing one for my old Boat, just to get him around for now, till he can eventually afford a new one. His came unfurled in a storm while he was not aboard and was shredded.
Oh and when you get a new one, please let me know what it cost you. -
Poor electrical connections tend to be the most common cause of such problems. Internal issues with an ALT is less likely, especially on a newly rebuilt unit. Not impossible, but the least likely.
Do you know how to use a multi meter in both Voltage and Ohm's mode??
There could be a clue to a problem in what you have decsribed with the Tacho and turning engine off and on again. The ignistion Key may have a faulty/dirty/worn connection internally. That internal switch is sending a "sense" voltage to the ALT. If that switch has become "noisy" as in a poor connection, the ALT will be getting a poor and no constant voltage. That can result in the Tacho giving a non consistant reading. If you have a Voltage or current metre on the switch panel, you may see those readings vary in a constantly up and down way as well.
Also check the power to the Ign switch and from ign switch to ALT.
If you don't have monitoring metres on the switch panel, then use the Multi meter to view the voltage into the battery. It should remain a calm reading of around 13.8V upto 14.4V, depending on the setup. -
Two small things to check first.
Any chance the belt could be slipping? I know you will likely hear a slipping belt, but there can be times when it slips and it does not squeal. Which brings me to the next thing to check. A slipping belt means that under high load, the ALT may not be spinning fast enough to produce full output. The same thing happens if the engine is idling too low. Does the light go out if you raise the Revs?
High Load will be if the batteries are very low in charge state when you begin Charging. So also check that the Batteries are in OK condition. If they are not accepting charge, or are taking a very high current from the ALT, then the ALT light might also light up.
Failing that, go with the great advice above. -
Wild Violet has the proper solution. Wooden Dowel and glue.
Next is to use epoxy filler.
Kneadit does not have much in the way of "wetting" ability. Epoxy with a little more "excess" of liquid will soak into the timber fibres better.
Desulfating / Reconditioning Optima Yellowtop
in TechTalk
Posted
In short answer, no you will not harm the batteries charging 24/7 or leaving the charger off for a few days. It is really only long term of both that will eventually cause an issue. Something seen in remote power sights for instance. This is why remote sites tend to use Gel banks. The Gel battery is better at longer term float charging, with the very rare event of being used in a power cut and then back to charge again. AGM,s do not like that as much and FLA's require too much maintenance to be left alone for long periods of time.