John B 106 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 I've had a couple of people comment to me that their offshore insurance was invalidated if they sailed 2 handed. That true, in general? Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 355 Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Some maybe, depends on your policy Some companies require a minimum number of experienced crew, This is often 3, but you can get policies for less crew, it just costs more Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 Yes it's true but as Jon mentions it may only be some. I do know some definitely won't cover you 2 handed. Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Yep, many policies, and many companies won't cover you shorthanded. I used Northern Reef, through Brian Hepburn, to get bluewater cover. They even covered me for the Solo Tasman....Still with them 4 years later. Link to post Share on other sites
idlerboat 116 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 any rough ideas of cost for two up 40 footer ? Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Ours was under 3 k for 180k cover if I remember correctly... Link to post Share on other sites
idlerboat 116 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 Thanks IT, that is less than I expected. Link to post Share on other sites
John B 106 Posted April 11, 2014 Author Share Posted April 11, 2014 Thanks for the reponses. The only offshore trips I've been on (are as crew), have involved assembling 4 or 5 people to help get the boat there. Tonga ,Fiji . You're part of a crew of weekend warriors so to speak, with only a set amount of time available to do the trip , so you tend to leave in less than optimal conditions . Thats fine , you get a bit knocked around. But meeting all these international guys who have spent the summer here, they are inevitably two up and have no pressure to leave until they're happy to do so. ( and a few kiwis as well) Yeah yeah, I know about paralysis by analysis and 'the weather window' and all that , but my point is that it actually seems safer to me ( risk wise ) that the boat leaves at the best time rather than the time it has to leave because of a schedule. A schedule, as we all know, is the most dangerous thing on a boat. So when these comments about not having cover two up started to emerge it left me wondering why and whether 'they' have it wrong. I can see how they must weight watchkeeping / exhaustion or perhaps those issues in conjunction with one person being incapacitated but it still seems like a better risk if the boat travels at a better time even so. Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Pope 243 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 We had no trouble 2 up with 3 hour watches, 24 / 7, tiller steering for a lot of it, a well balanced boat certainly helps. Link to post Share on other sites
sailfish 0 Posted April 11, 2014 Share Posted April 11, 2014 omg northern reef are you crazy!!!! I suggest you do some googling.... I suggest you go with a well known like lumley through baileys. Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted April 12, 2014 Share Posted April 12, 2014 Sailfish, I have read the negative reports online about northern reef. If you look deep enough, most of it is by one guy. I spoke to them about those reports, and they say they are convinced, and have evidence, that that claim was fraudulent. So they have not paid. They have not been sued. Every company has some bad publicity, online or otherwise. The local agent here is Brian Hepburn, the ex owner of the Island Cruising Assn. He has seen claims, including whole vessel loss, go through them with no issues and rapid payout. They have provided me with easily understood contracts and competitive prices, including cover for locations and situations others would not. So I stayed with them. However, I have not made any claims with them personally. Matt Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,211 Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Further to this issue, Brian sent me this and I asked for permission to publish it here, which I now have; Here is Brian's response, including testimonials of happy customers of Northern Reef Insurance; __________________________________________________________________ "First re the matter with being an insurance company and my being kicked out of an unheard of association. You are required to put up a bond of NZ$500,000 to register as a stand-alone insurance company. I do not have a spare half million dollars to spare, so did not proceed with the application. As an agent I never collect money and therefore do not have a Trust account. Northernreef insure vessels all over the world. All the Directors are British nationals and I have met them all more than once. Re the comments you have read or rumours you have heard. I have represented this company for many years now and have many hundreds of yachts insured with them through me, all around the world. Two complete losses in the Bay of Islands in NZ alone including mine lost in a storm by breaking off its mooring. The other yacht hit a reef out in the bay and was destroyed without loss of life. Both paid out in full. Some years ago I know of two claims that were not paid and I know the complete history of both of them. One was a yacht on the way from Fiji to NZ (for the second time as the first crew would not sail with this Skipper and demanded to be returned to Fiji) and was abandoned and the crew were taken off by a passing freighter that was on the way to Noumea. On arrival the assessor had made arrangements to interview the entire crew one at a time and the Captain of the freighter. First the Captain said the yacht was not low in the water and did not give the appearance of sinking. One of the crew of the yacht when interviewed said the yacht Skipper had told him if he told the story he was told to say he would get a share of the insurance! A few weeks later the Australian Police reported the yacht to be on the beach in the Solomon Islands abandoned! It was a case of fraud. The insurance company offered to meet the client in a court of his choosing to have a Judge settle this matter. He never replied to the offer but wrote on many web sites calling us all the rat bag names he could think of. The next was a boat that left north east Australia heading for the South Pacific Islands. The boat took on water within a day and a half of leaving Australia. The Skipper pumped the water, did not find a cause and proceeded to sail on. The weather report showed he had a head wind. The yacht founded twice more before sinking, now far from Australian shores. These facts were written in his log book which he saved. The Assessor gave the ruling of Bad Seamanship and recommended that the claim be disputed. You can read the owners version I believe on the blog of Seven Seas Association on both these cases but you will only read one side. Not the accessor’s findings. I have found in life there are two sides to every story. I have also found in life that the one that makes the most noise is often the guilty one. Nowhere in the blogs will you read that it was the assessor that gave the rulings of bad seamanship in the latter case and fraud in the first case. The World Wide Web is a great tool but that is all it is. The big problem is it is not policed and to dispute anything is nigh on impossible. For instance one person can call another person all the names he can think of and to dispute it through the courts the international courts is almost impossible. The medical profession is having enormous problems with the web as you do not have to be a qualified Doctor to put up a web site on any medical subject. It is a bit like newspapers or the news on TV. Not all you read in the newspaper or hear on the TV is true and we all know that and accept it but for some reason people do not think the www can lie! All the pages are written by people. To fight a case on the web is like trying to nail a cloud to the sky. You could end up spending millions and still not succeed. All I know is, I have many hundreds of yachts insured through me all around the world and I have had many claims over the years that have been satisfied very successfully. So there we are, it takes sometimes a long time to get an answer from me, but when it does come it is a long one. I hope this clears up a few things for you. You asked for references so here are just a few I have on file. Below are a few referrals from satisfied customers. From: Whangarei Marina [mailto] Sent: 05 December 2013 19:58 Subject: RE: Claim Mr. Steve Croft Policy Number 11170 Thank you and I am so impressed with the efficiency with this settlement. Kind regards Brian Caulton Marina Manager Whangarei Marina, 37 Quayside, Town Basin, Whangarei 0110, New Zealand Tel: +64 9 4382033 www.whangareimarina.com Good morning Joan and Brian we wanted you to know how efficient and helpful the Northern Reef insurance people have been with our claim for our lost dinghy and outboard. Via fax, email and post we have made the claim and received the money into our bank account - and to think we have been communicating with them from Tonga, Fiji and Vanuatu and the chap we were dealing with is in Spain!!! This may be helpful for other folk who are contemplating insurance. Regards Mark and Sue Altoft. S/Y Windchase. "We just wanted to THANK YOU for all your help, professionalism, proactive communications, guidance, direction and patience over the last few weeks. Edward William is just a great team and a great organization. Thank goodness we have you as our insurance agents. Thank you once again for all your team's help over the last month. The funds that you transferred are in our account and we just wanted to say another big thank you. Your team is amazing. Yours Sincerely" Pamela & Graham Ellis, Canada “Keep up the good work, our Island Cruising Assoc. members certainly appreciate the hard work and excellent service you offer.” Regards John & Lyn Martin Directors Island Cruising Assoc. "I’ve received my claim, I would just like to thank you for your help. I found your service excellent. Thank you very much" Paul Dolfin – Queensland, Australia "Again, many, many thanks for your intervention on our behalf. It is very much appreciated. " "And please express our sincere appreciation to the folks at Northernreef for their very principled agreement to offer coverage despite Frank's absconding with the premium monies. This kind of gentlemanly way of doing business is only rarely encountered these days." Alice Lesjak, Florida. "I am very happy with your quick response and I thank you for the exception you have made. Below you can find my bank details........." Lex Ruijter, Netherlands. Hi Brian, Although I have not had cause to make a claim, I have been very happy with the service from your client. They have always been very quick to respond to my inquiries, as you also have. I think the policy detail is well set out, easy to read and understand, and clearly written by yachties for yachties. Again, thanks for the support and when I buy another boat (and I am sure it will happen someday), then I will come calling again. In the meantime, regards to you other half. Roger Foley S/Y Tradition.¬ Dear Brian, Just managed to get to a place where we can get internet and would just like to let you know that the insurance payment was received into our account. Thanks very much for your assistance and thanks too to Malcolm for his reassurance and help after we had that accident. Whilst it turned out to be nothing really serious, at the time is was a great worry and the prompt and helpful responses from Edward William Marine Services helped a lot to relieve the stress. Best regards, Richard Shaw S/Y Aquarius Hi Brian, May I take this opportunity to thank you and the overseas team for the excellent service and insurance over the past two years it has been a pleasure to work with you all and I look forward to dealing with you again in the not too distant future. Many thanks and Kind regards Dennis and Elspeth McAulay. S/Y Venus I was very pleased with your answer last week as a solution for At Random. Romeyn Marten, St. Marten Dutch West Indies. We want to thank you for your prompt and gracious method of dealing with this unfortunate situation. We are refreshed to see Northernreef Insurance has obvious good business practices, and we will be continuing our coverage in years to come. Jim & Gwen Funston, Florida. Thanks a lot for your quick response. I have just checked my account and I confirm safe receipt of the payment. Thanks a lot. Herve Favre, France." _______________________________________________________________ So there you go. Of course, I strongly recommend you carefully research any Insurance provider you choose, and read the policy thoroughly. Seems to me all the companies try to get out of their obligations if they possibly can in a legal sounding manner! There are bad things online about almost every single company. The best advice I can give is to be careful, sail well, and keep a good lookout! Cheers Matt Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 The World Wide Web is a great tool but that is all it is. The big problem is it is not policed and to dispute anything is nigh on impossible. For instance one person can call another person all the names he can think of and to dispute it through the courts the international courts is almost impossible. The medical profession is having enormous problems with the web as you do not have to be a qualified Doctor to put up a web site on any medical subject. It is a bit like newspapers or the news on TV. Not all you read in the newspaper or hear on the TV is true and we all know that and accept it but for some reason people do not think the www can lie! Mis-information and pure bollocks on the interweb isn't limited to just insurance and medical. It's rampant in most industries..... actually it's knot limited to the interweb either. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 You get what you pay for with offshore insurance. We were insured for 4 years with Northern Reef and had one claim (for rigging failure) which was paid without problem and the service was great. But 3 or 4 years ago their "Yacht clauses" got a lot more detailed and a lot of very specific exclusions were added - I have copied in some below. A key one is that if your mast and spars are over 10 years old you will get nothing for them in the event of a claim. This has resulted in some serious discontent with people who thought they had cover and their claims were refused when the mast came down through rigging failure. Brian Hepburn refused to enter into discussion with me about this change and we took our insurance elsewhere - twice the price but without the same exclusions. If a shroud fails on 40 ft plus yacht and the mast comes down you can easily be up for $70 to $100k including replacement sails and spars and the cost of shipping and rigging if it happens outside NZ. This is something many people would expect to be covered for. If your rigging is less than 10 years old that will be covered but not the spars. --------From Norther Reef Yacht Clauses 2010--------- 14.3.1 All rigging is to be replaced every ten years for cover under the policy to apply. (Proof will be required in the event of a claim) 14.3.2 In the event of a claim to the Mast, Spars and/or Rigging the value will be calculated on a sliding / deduction scale as follows: - One Year old 10% and then an additional 10% each year thereafter, all masts, spars and/or rigging over ten years of age will have a zero value in the event of a claim. 14.4 All sails are to be replaced every six years for cover to apply. 14.4.1 In the event of a claim to sails the value will be calculated on a sliding / deduction scale as follows: - One year old 25% and then an additional 15% for each year thereafter. All sails over 6 years old will have a zero value in the event of a claim. 14.5 The excess / deductible applicable under this policy of insurance is doubled when the vessel is moored, or at anchor, unless said mooring is on a secure pontoon or wall mooring in a recognised marina, or on a permanent riverside mooring Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,566 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 All sails to be less than 6 years old - wow. Link to post Share on other sites
sailinghigh 0 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Ours was under 3 k for 180k cover if I remember correctly... What was the policy excess. The cheapest is total loss insurance for ocean sailing. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites
sailinghigh 0 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 All sails to be less than 6 years old - wow. Have you tried to sell your sails second hand either by advertising or through a second hand commercial dealer? Highly competitive race yachts get new sails every year. That can be the difference between winning, a placing and not winning. Do the Olympic sailors sail with 2 year old sails? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Do the Olympic sailors sail with 2 year old sails? No idea, go ask a 470 that's sailed across an ocean and ask them Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Do the Olympic sailors sail with 2 year old sails? No idea, go ask a 470 that's sailed across an ocean and ask them If you believe that you will believe anything. They Don't. Link to post Share on other sites
Jon 355 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 What, they don't sail across oceans in 470's Are you sure Link to post Share on other sites
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