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Drouge - big or small in front?


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One of these.

DSC_04661.JPG

One is bigger then the other, not by a lot but by easily noticeable.

 

Would you have the big one in front or the small one?

 

Would you always run the 2 together or use one then as things got worse add the other?

So to speak as no way would I deploy one them bring it in during the storm to add another. The call would be use one or both and deploy as such I'd expect.

 

The boat is a 50 something raft that has been around the world already with thee on board. I'd say they have never been used or if they have certainly not in vengeance for any period of time.

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Big on first, smaller behind. There are online instructions for making a jordan series drogue for not much if you search.

 

IMO drogues are good if the direction you want to go is downwind. Parachutes if not. KM your boat could use a standard military cargo chute - ah la the Pardeys. They are cheap.  Id guess about 4m or a bit less for you. Look for a BOURD chute - a mate bought one on ebay for $25.00!

 

Mine is a proper W.A Coppins stormfighter, 5m, but pretty expensive. Works great though! :-) 

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Jordan Series is not the answer and never will be.

 

I have a 2.7mt chute for my boat. A very well made thing made in the US. A Paratech ........ maybe??? It's a little cutie and when packed away it's no bigger than a hiking sleeping bag rolled up.

 

Looks like a raft drogue for out the back, slow things down a bit.

Front end parachute would be much bigger, like 20' or 6 metres.

 

That's also what the owner and I believe them to be and why, they are too small to be any sort of stopper. We aren't sure what would be the best way to rig them up for the best performance.

 

I'll measure closer tomorrow but they are a metre maybe a bit more wider and with 2 of them they would present some nice drag. Each would have to present 4 or more sq/mts each, ball park when in use, that could be very handy. They are very well made and strong but have no names on them.

 

The plan is to put on a good bridle and off the junction to the streaming line run a line up each side that can reach a good winch which can be used to steer with. Or just leave them midships and take the braking action if required. This is all off the stern.

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I have a jordan drogue (copy) that is 100m long, including the bridle, probably a bit short but better than nothing. It is for using down wind, not recommended for use of the bow. That being said it is heavy and cumbersome to get up on deck in anything other than moderate seas. I find that lying hove to as good a solution as any, the boat lies comfortably taking the seas on the port / starboard bow, You make very little little leeway. Mentioned in one of Pardys books when they were lying Hove to they made about 12 miles leeway, another yacht in the same storm that lay a hull made 80 miles leeway. Not a problem if you have the sea room although that is 80 miles that has to be re-sailed once the weather improves. To date I've not been in weather bad enough to consider using the drogue.

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Big on first, smaller behind.

I found someone who is a drogue expert and he said the opposite for maximum drag but the big before the small will also work, they are designed to be used in a few configurations.

 

He reckons the above are brilliant as you can stage them, unlike many that are either on or off with nothing in between. like chutes and most Jordan styles, not that those and the above are designed to do the same job. The idea is in low/average wind you have a great steering drogue should you have a rudder/ steering system failure. You can also use it to slow the boat a bit or just help keep the bum behind the bow. As the conditions build you can stage up to maybe just the big one or then the big in front of the small or for the full fruit the small in front of the big.

 

He reckons the multiplier of having the small in front of the big could be as much as 4 times where having them the other way around is likely only to be 2 and at best 3 times. He reckons the stopping power would surprise most and the preliminary numbers he suggested it could see has us moving up from the planned 16mm to 20mm line because of the bigger than expected loads.

 

It was a very interesting chat and I've sent him the details which he's going to run thru something and hopefully give me some possible forces involved. Those would be very interesting to see. I'll stick them up if I'm allowed, there is a close connection to a organisation that is very twitchy about 'releasing' things publicly, even things seemingly innocent. Yeap a bureaucracy but not one of ours this time.

 

That being said it is heavy and cumbersome to get up on deck in anything other than moderate seas.

You don't pre-rig just in case?

I'm going to have mine set up so all I have to do is open the locker pull out the float/bag and throw the lot overboard, job done as it will do it all itself from there on. I expect my issues to come on retrieval.

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I have it stored in a large cockpit locker, problem being it has to be lifted up out of the locker. Age doesn't help! It is stored in a large dive bag, Easier in calm weather, but not so easy in a force 5 to 6 with seas to match. for curiosities sake I will weigh it.

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Do you hook it all up prior to leaving so it's a pick up and throw?

 

Tell me about the age thing. It makes glassing down the ends of 1/4 berths a lot harder than back in the more flexible days :)

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With the cockpit storage lockers the way they are, it is not practical to pre-set the drogue, as the lid, which is also one of the cockpit seats would have to be left partially open, not an option. It is my earnest wish to never have need to use it, but given that sh*t does happen occasionally I'm sure I would manage to get it on deck and deployed if and when required. Getting it back in may well be another story.

Re age, not long after buying Gwalarn I re-did all the engine mounts, which entailed getting down into the bilge through an opening barely wider than my shoulders wriggling along until I was under the engine pod then rolling 180 degrees until I was  lying on my back. Woe betide me if I disturbed a bolt that I had set up "not" to turn when attempting to get a nut started as that meant reversing the whole procedure. Happened twice! I did take a cell ph down with me in case I became cast and not able to retreat. Would be totally undooable now!

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This is how Roger Taylor stores his JSD in the cockpit on his 24ft

 Mingming II.

The same set up on for the other half of it on the starboard side.

 

JSD

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With the cockpit storage lockers the way they are, it is not practical to pre-set the drogue, as the lid, which is also one of the cockpit seats would have to be left partially open, not an option. It is my earnest wish to never have need to use it, but given that sh*t does happen occasionally I'm sure I would manage to get it on deck and deployed if and when required. Getting it back in may well be another story.

Re age, not long after buying Gwalarn I re-did all the engine mounts, which entailed getting down into the bilge through an opening barely wider than my shoulders wriggling along until I was under the engine pod then rolling 180 degrees until I was  lying on my back. Woe betide me if I disturbed a bolt that I had set up "not" to turn when attempting to get a nut started as that meant reversing the whole procedure. Happened twice! I did take a cell ph down with me in case I became cast and not able to retreat. Would be totally undooable now!

Ah the old closing locker conundrum, I know it well. As I do with your small space issues. I climbed into my new auditorium as we call it, the bit in the middle between the 1/4 berths, and got stuck turning around. For a moment there I though I may have to chainsaw my way out.

 

This is why I'm pretty happy. The chute and the red rope next to it is the 20mt retrieval line. Hardly something massive I'll have to hump around.

SDC13325.JPG

 

That's a tidy installation and one easy to deploy from I'd say Partisan. While I'm not quite as bad haveing a few more feet of boat, I have found myself getting a bit creative in how I use space.

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It looks tiny doesn't it, that was my first thought as well. I've had it out and it's very deceptive. It is a Para-Tech made in the US 9fter and rated for up to 4.5 ton boats when I'll be 2.5 give or take a few muesli bars. Of course I can't use any old string so that's a fancy super light but very strong 5mm which hangs out the back to a float (a fender in  my case) for retrieving it all. I'll use my anchor rode as the main line. I will tweak the anchor line a little to suit but chutes and anchoring like the same stuff which is handy.

 

So having some of the gear already which will be re tasked when at sea to be chute parts, the only bits then missing are in the photo above.

 

But I am wondering if I need a slower downer drouge a well. Being small I think I'll just grab a nice size fishing one. One from say Bays Canvas in Albany or some other very good NZ made one, not some of the imported crap, a lot of those are as strong as dunny paper. The question I haven't answered yet is what size.

 

I got some calcs relating the the drogues in the 1st post. Impressive amount of stop in them, way more than I was expecting. Having the 2, and there are some the same with 3, is the same principle a as a Jorden series. The increase in drag by having 2 over one is massive and the difference between having the small one in front compared to behind is significant.

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That's interesting KM. all the drogue systems I've seen using multiple drogues use the big one forward. Thinking about that, if they are in line, the larger one would make turbulence for the aft one/s, so maybe it should be the other way around. Got any real data?

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Having a simpler single cone drogue can, as I found when anchored in a deepish hole the river at Whangape where I used my one (after a light bulb moment) off the stern to keep the boat in the middle of the hole, when  the wind and opposing out going tide were insisting that we should be lying on our side out of the hole.

The one I used then was a Lazilas PVC 4metre one. Far too big for what I was using it for, but it did keep us in the hole.

I would now consider getting a smaller one for river duty and for emergency steering if ever the rudder decides to give trouble.

Another thought is with the Jordan type if laid rope was used wouldn't there be a tendency for the rope to un-lay from the pressure of the cones??

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