Island Time 1,235 Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 OK, now you are getting somewhere. Say roughly a $ USD a day to do 36 miles. That is roughly 60 Kms. If his figures are accurate, that is about 1/2 of the cost of running the Suzuki in NZ, where our fuel is 3 x the price it is in the USA at this time. Same trip in Jo's Suzuki in the USA would cost him $0.90c per day, a 10% saving. Here in NZ his electric car MIGHT be good, but we still don't know how many KWhrs the car consumed, or what his cost is per Kwhr... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Romany 162 Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Wheels what would you say about this - I have 6 year old deep cycle house, and start batteries, both FLA, charged thru BEP VSR system and monitored by BEP meter that shows battery voltage, capacity (in a/h and %), and charge rate. It seems that the meter only monitors the house battery capacity, but it reads both house and start voltage, and charge rate obvioulsy only when alt running. The meter reads V & AH even when batteries are switched off. I have regularly over the past couple of years found the house battery discharging at 0.2A with everything off, batteries off at isolator, switches - everything off. This discharge seems to continue slowly (i.e. it doesn't suddenly spike to 1A or 5A discharge or any other number - always 0.2A) until the AH are depleted to zero, and apparently house battery voltage to zero too, because the meter does not read anything. Here's the bit that confuses me. With meter unresponsive I can start the motor without paralleling (it would seem pointless anyway) - every time, so that tells me start battery is healthy as? Meter wakes up, and immediately voltage on both batteries shows as 13.9 V, charge rate reads high (say 30 or so A maybe higher can't recall), battery capacity then increases over several hours and it all looks normal. After several hours of charging with the expected reducing charge rate (I think this means the alt is working as it should and also meter too) the house batt will jump from say 45% capacity to 100%. My understanding is not great but I believe the V reading with alt running is somewhat of a red herring because the meter reads the V while battery is excited? Anyway - I turn it off and again - everything off, 0.2a discharge and here we go again. Seems logical that the house batt may be poked after extended periods of apparent discharge below the 10.7 V range (which I think I have been told is technically flat for FLAs?), and I've been told that I must replace both batteries at one time. Is that correct? And how would you go about finding the big hole that's getting all the 0.2A's. There's got to be a barrel of the bastards there and if I could get em back I'd be sweet 2 be honest I am electrically incompetent so I guess best would be to go to marine sparkie person - do you know of one around these parts that I can trust to get my 0.2's back? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Romany, where are you located? This will not be hard to sort out I would think. The meter sounds like a BEP DCM 600 - is that right? Good meter - I use one myself. The reason that the state of charge jumps from 45% to 100 is that the acceptance charge on the batts has dropped to below the reset threshold of the meter. This is as it should be, but the issue is why are the batts at 45% to begin with. The 0.2 a is a load somewhere, something is not disconnected by the mains switch... need to trace the cables from the batteries. As your meter is not working 100% at this time, then you cannot rely on it. Don't buy any batteries until the issue is sorted - you may not need them. The lack of voltage display for the start bank is likely to be an issue with where the bank + sense lead from the meter is connected - it should be directly to the start batt +. These meters are not hard to set up, and give great battery info when connected and programmed correctly. If you are anywhere near here (Gulf Harbour) I'd be happy to sort this out for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Romany 162 Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Thanks IT - Weiti is home these days and hopefully I am about to become a member of that revered establishment - as long as Nevenka doesn't tell any lies about me that are believable it should be in the bag! I think you are right about the meter ID - cant recall exactly but it sounds similar. Was on the ship when I bought her and it has always just worked. I'll give you a call one day shortly maybe later in the week. It would be nice to sort it as I just get annoyed by these things. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Thanks IT - Weiti is home these days and hopefully I am about to become a member of that revered establishment - as long as Nevenka doesn't tell any lies about me that are believable it should be in the bag! I think you are right about the meter ID - cant recall exactly but it sounds similar. Was on the ship when I bought her and it has always just worked. I'll give you a call one day shortly maybe later in the week. It would be nice to sort it as I just get annoyed by these things. No prob - 0221539176 Might be next week though, I'm busy Thursday and Fri I'll be in Wellington. Cheers Matt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,586 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 For those focussing on subsidies try to remember the fossil fuel industries are also subsidized The IEA’s latest estimates indicate that fossil-fuel consumption subsidies worldwide amounted to $493 billion in 2014, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
idlerboat 116 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Romany, the problem is definitely with the BEP meter. I have rung them direct and talked to them about this issue before.. They have told me that the shunt wiring and placement of the shunt is also critical to accurate readings. Pressing the manual synchronise buttons when you know that the battery(s) are fully charged will give you an indication of what is going on... I am looking at both a 12v and 24v set right now and the 24v unit has a voltage of 27.2 but is showing all available amps used up Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Yep IB, like all electronic data devices, garbage in, garbage out. Installed and programmed correctly, these are an invaluable device to understand what is going on in your electrical system. Installed or programmed wrongly, they are worse than useless, as they may deceive an owner about what is really happening - and make them buy unneeded new batts, or a bigger alt for example. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Romany 162 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Hopefully just a reset but we will see.All I can say with confidence is that it used to work just fine and that I didn't mess with it. I'll call next week Matt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Excellent advice from IT. I use the "Link 2000" system and just like the BEP unit, the info it gives you is invaluable. Most especially, monitoring the charging of the bank back to it's full charge.IB made mention of shunt and associated wiring. The problem with a shunt is that it must be able to allow a very high current to pass with little voltage drop, which then means such a very tiny voltage is sent via that wiring to the monitor. So all electrical connections must be perfect. One thing to check in regards to the start bank not reading, on the sense wires, it is highly possible there are fuses in the lines to protect the wires. Or should be anyway, as they are connected directly to the batteries and certainly need protection. So if there are fuses, check that the start bank one has not failed.The best thing to do is to test the House batteries. First thing is get the House batteries fully charged. Then disconnect them fully from everything and leave them to sit for an hr..ruffly...and then measure the voltage with a digital multi meter. You want to be seeing a Voltage of at least 12.6V and after only an hr, hopefully much higher. 12.8V is a good battery for FLA. If under 12.6V by just an hr, then the batteries are not good, but may still be usable. Now Leave for 24hrs or longer and measure Voltage again. This is called the resting or "open cell" voltage. Once again, a good battery should give you at the very least, 12.6V. If you are under 12.6V, then they are getting tired. 12.4V is 50% discharged battery and means you are not going to get a lot of use from it. 12V is flat. 11.8V is fully discharged. Frankly, if the resting voltage is around 12V, then forget it. YES!! you MUST replace both batteries. You must NEVER fit a new battery to any other battery older the 12months of age. The older battery will have an ever so slightly different internal resistance which results in a different charge current and that causes the new battery to be charge incorrectly and it will likely wreck you brand new battery.In regards to the 10.7V discharge, is this the cutoff voltage of the Inverter? This is a little tricky. Basically, the real voltage is not actually 10.7V. To get the real voltage, you want to measure that resting voltage. So you would need to disconnect the battery and leave it for a few hrs and then measure it again. The current produced by a battery is made by a chemical reaction. The charge builds up on the plate till there is a balance between the composition of the electrolyte and the plate charge. Once you turn something on and draw a current, that balance changes and the chemical reaction starts again to produce more current. So there is a delay in making the current. House batteries being deep cycle are not good at producing currently fast. They are good and less current for a much longer time. Hopefully you are still following. So when a load is connected, like the inverter, the plate voltage will be a lot lower than what the battery is actually. Once you turn off the load, the plate starts to build the charge till it reaches that balance again and that is what needs to be no lower than 12V Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,586 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I have no idea, so I googled NZ fossil fuel subsidies. Got lots of stuff to read but here are some highlights The National-led government has significantly increased its support for oil and gas through indirect subsidies such as taxbreaks and support for exploration data and research – up from $6 million in 2009 to $46 million today. In total, support for consumption and production of fossil fuels has risen from $40.6 million to almost $85 million. However the $500bn per annum that the Friends website identifies as global fossil fuel subsidies consumers (and which is supported in other research) are made mainly to address fuel poverty and are barely relevant in New Zealand **. IMF research says they make up only 6% of the $5.3 trillion a year of subsidies to fossil fuels internationally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chloe 7 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Wheels what would you say about this - I have 6 year old deep cycle house, and start batteries, both FLA, charged thru BEP VSR system and monitored by BEP meter that shows battery voltage, capacity (in a/h and %), and charge rate. It seems that the meter only monitors the house battery capacity, but it reads both house and start voltage, and charge rate obvioulsy only when alt running. The meter reads V & AH even when batteries are switched off. I have regularly over the past couple of years found the house battery discharging at 0.2A with everything off, batteries off at isolator, switches - everything off. This discharge seems to continue slowly (i.e. it doesn't suddenly spike to 1A or 5A discharge or any other number - always 0.2A) until the AH are depleted to zero, and apparently house battery voltage to zero too, because the meter does not read anything. Here's the bit that confuses me. With meter unresponsive I can start the motor without paralleling (it would seem pointless anyway) - every time, so that tells me start battery is healthy as? Meter wakes up, and immediately voltage on both batteries shows as 13.9 V, charge rate reads high (say 30 or so A maybe higher can't recall), battery capacity then increases over several hours and it all looks normal. After several hours of charging with the expected reducing charge rate (I think this means the alt is working as it should and also meter too) the house batt will jump from say 45% capacity to 100%. My understanding is not great but I believe the V reading with alt running is somewhat of a red herring because the meter reads the V while battery is excited? Anyway - I turn it off and again - everything off, 0.2a discharge and here we go again. Seems logical that the house batt may be poked after extended periods of apparent discharge below the 10.7 V range (which I think I have been told is technically flat for FLAs?), and I've been told that I must replace both batteries at one time. Is that correct? And how would you go about finding the big hole that's getting all the 0.2A's. There's got to be a barrel of the bastards there and if I could get em back I'd be sweet 2 be honest I am electrically incompetent so I guess best would be to go to marine sparkie person - do you know of one around these parts that I can trust to get my 0.2's back? I don't know if this will help, had a similar problem on a mates boat a few years ago. We put an isolation switch on the common earth problem solved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Chloe, what a neg Isolation switch is doing is removing the issue when the boat is unused and the switch is off. It's still there when the switch is on... MUCH better to fix the issue. IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I agree.It's important to track down stray currents, because you never know if the issue is something that is causing an electrolysis problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 This is why I struggle to understand why so few yachties have DC clamp meters on their vessels. If you have one, it becomes a very simple task to figure out where current is flowing. Without one, it can be hard to find a hidden current sink which may only be nibbling a .25 amp or so, but can be causing all sorts of issues with both battery discharge and if things are not set up quite as well as they should be, electrolysis. Considering the relative low price of a DC clamp meter, it should be considered a vital test tool. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Yeah TT, but I still am surprised by the number who don't even have a Multi-meter, let alone a decent clamp meter! Of course a good clamp meter is also a multi-meter... For anyone unaware, a clamp meter is a multi meter with a pair of jaws at one end. Simply put the jaws around any (single!) cable and it will tell you the current (amps) passing through it. This is the easiest way of measuring current - conventional multi-meters can measure current, but to do so they require the circuit to be broken and the meter inserted into the circuit - and most only go to 10A, where as a clamp meter can often do 400A or more - so can measure an anchor winch draw, for example. If anyone is reading this and considering a clamp meter, make certain it can do DC amps - some are AC only A basic necessity for any electrical fault finding, and probably my most used electrical tool. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beccara 25 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Just to add a little caution for anyone looking at a clamp meter. The cheapies and the not-so-cheap units have poor measurement at sub 5a range where you can expect +/- 0.5a typically. Chasing stray sub-amp stuff needs a low current meter like a 30a unit where you get +/- 0.01a results 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Good comment Beccara.A really good accurate clamp meter is really expensive and the cheapies just don't get the job done.I think that for most people, they might get by with simple basic fault finding, but trying to trace faults that require that level of meter is likely going to need the expertise of a tech anyway. But a basic multi meter is a very good thing to have in the boaties toolbox and it is not expensive to get some very decent meters these days. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
too_tall 15 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 I found the UniT meters from DX.com work just fine - and measure down around .01a fairly accurately ( tested with decent equipment ). They live up to their accuracy of +- 2%. Thats pretty fine for finding almost any issue. They are about $100 landed. Thats pretty cheap in my books. I used to use $1K+ fluke meters, but these are as good and if you get them salty, not exactly a major upset. Getting a Fluke salty, however, is quite upsetting. My sole remaining Fluke meter resides firmly on my workbench beside my scope now and never goes out. I probably have about 10 UniT meters floating around the yacht, tractors, cowsheds, ute etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,235 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Interesting TT, I came to the same decision. When I had my IT company, I used fluke. Now I use Uni T as well, for the same reasons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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