Torqeedo outboard

[ex TL systems 63]

yes i had thought that the electric ob could work and be a lot lighter and smaller , but a yammy would probably last a long time if it works, and i already have it and it should just be removing parts more than buying more parts and yes the drag would only be at night ,with solar during the day, usually like to slow down at night anyway.

[Steve Pope 243]

Saw a "Duogen" yesterday, a bit bulky, but it can with a change of prop be used either trailing in the water or as a wind generator, been around for a while apparently.

[Zozza 293]

Crikey this thread took on a life of it's own.

Some really interesting stuff though, and glad it got people to offer up some real interesting ideas on the variuos methods to help charge batteries. That watt and sea is damn expensive and I doubt worth it on my traditional long keeler where 6 -7 would be the upper limits of SOG in the right conditions.

 

I'm at the point, where as much as I desire electrical propulsion, even a Torqeedo 2R doesn't quite stack up with the amount of weight you need added with the batteries (a 24v "Power 104" lithium battery offered by Torqeedo while light in weight, will set you back a cool $4K NZD and change!! ) , solar panel arch, and panels themselves, and the range issue, and the fact I unfortunately DO have to get to work on Monday at this time in my life. Plus it will all cost quite a bit to purchase and set up and I wan't to go sailing without having to rob a bank before I can.

So, at the moment I admit defeat and will almost certainly be keeping the diesel for the foreseeable future.

 

*Since their has been some recent posts on batteries in this thread, whats everyones thoughts on placement of house batteries in a boat with a deep bilge? Low down in the bilge is where I thought would be the best place, but then a friend said "Yuh but what happens when you get a decent amount of water in the bilge...there goes your electrical system, not to mention the gasses the batteries can give off when they get wet".

At the moment there is just one battery which is charged via the engine, which is just aft of amidships in the bilge, but I want to add a decent off grid house system. I've got 2 x 50 watts of flexible panels and I am thinking 200ah 12v Agm will do the trick or maybe 2x 6v 100 ah deep cycles.

 

**no fridge or any huge ah draw on my boat. Biggest draw item would be the unistalled raymarine auto pilot (I also have an uninstalled servo-p windvane for longer passages}, and the uninstalled electric anchor winch. So, apart from the infrequent use of these two items,  I just want a system mainly to run lights and recharge laptops, phone, etc

 

***Incidentally, is there any reason / advantage to have 2 x 6v deep cycles in series, as opposed to getting one 12v deep cycle battery in the required ah you require?

[too_tall 15]

2 6v 100ah batteries are only half the capacity of a single 12v 200ah battery.

 

That 12v battery will be very heavy!.

 

I believe that the physical construction properties of the 12v batteries vrs 2 6v batteries will give the 6v in series bank a better lifespan if both systems are charged and maintained correctly. Also, as noted above, the 12v battery is going to be one heavy unit, unless you make up the ah rating with multiple parallel 12v batteries.

[wheels 543]

 

*Since their has been some recent posts on batteries in this thread, whats everyones thoughts on placement of house batteries in a boat with a deep bilge? Low down in the bilge is where I thought would be the best place, but then a friend said "Yuh but what happens when you get a decent amount of water in the bilge...there goes your electrical system, not to mention the gasses the batteries can give off when they get wet".

Yep always a major dilema that one. Low down and centre is best for Boat balance, but Salt water is a major detriment and yes, if Salt water ever got inside the battery, it produces a huge volume of Chlorine Gas and even cause a Battery to explode, as the gas sometimes can not get out as fast as it is produced.

 

***Incidentally, is there any reason / advantage to have 2 x 6v deep cycles in series, as opposed to getting one 12v deep cycle battery in the required ah you require?

There is no real advantage, apart from having a physical size and weight less than 12V.

Disadvantages are many.

As TT said, you still only have 100Ahr. You have to connect batteries in parallel to get twice the Ahr, but then you are left with just 6V. So you then actually need 4 6V batts to get the 12V. in the end, you have twice the physical size, a bit more weight and a bit more money for connection cables.

Do be aware of the 200Ahr batteries around that are called N200. There are many types of these batteries and it is not clear or obvious as to the difference. You may find one called a Deep cycle and another called a Traction Battery and some are Start batteries and then there is the odd one that is a combination of start/traction battery.

 

    A battery has a spec written in fine print on it, called the C Rate. C Rate is a sum of the Current the Battery is designed to produce over a period of time. For instance, a Battery could deliver 100A of current instantly for maybe 30Seconds. But it would be most unlikely to be able to produce 100Ahr for a 1hr. C Rating is once had an industry standard of 20hrs. The Battery could deliver say 10A for 20Ahrs before it reached the point of discharge. But many Manufacturers are now using 10hrs for the rating. They can specify the figure in two different ways, depending on which woolly jumper they want to pull over you eyes. They may list it as 10A for 10hrs instead of 20, or they may list it as 5A for 20hrs. Both are half the actual capacity of the 10A for 20Hr battery. All three may have a 100Ahr number on it. So Ahr does not actually tell you the whole story. And to add to that, the C rating might have a C10 or C20 stamped in a bold letter, but the actual way they came to that C number is written in very small words and sometimes it is not there at all. So we end up with two forms of citrus, but ones an orange and the other is a lemon.

[Zozza 293]

Wheels, mate, thanks for those battery tips. I had no idea, and would have been a dope and just believed the ah rating advertiesed, but now I know better. Thanks again mate.

[grant 40]

Some batteries will different amp hour ratings at different C rates. I deal with larger solar batteries and they are rated at a C100 rate. Those same batteries would have a lower amp rating at say a C20 rate. Meaning they will give up more power if you take a little over a long time rather than a lot over a short time.

 

Clear as mud?

[Fish 0]

I'm at the point, where as much as I desire electrical propulsion, even a Torqeedo 2R doesn't quite stack up with the amount of weight you need added with the batteries (a 24v "Power 104" lithium battery offered by Torqeedo while light in weight, will set you back a cool $4K NZD and change!! ) , solar panel arch, and panels themselves, and the range issue, and the fact I unfortunately DO have to get to work on Monday at this time in my life. Plus it will all cost quite a bit to purchase and set up and I wan't to go sailing without having to rob a bank before I can.

So, at the moment I admit defeat and will almost certainly be keeping the diesel for the foreseeable future.

 

 

Hi Partisan, I think that is a good call on a lot of fronts. Considering you already have a shiny, near new Beta engine (of which I am a little jealous, and have looked into closely to buying, accept in 35 hp), changing it out wouldn't have been so great.

 

From an environment a point of view, I understand the desire to do without oil / hydrocarbons, but the project to change to an electric drive would have resulted in the consumption of a lot of new goods. I don't think the reduction In use of deisel would have offset the additional consumption of stuff to install the electric drive, more so if you are frugal with your motoring and sail when ever you can. e.i. keep the hull clean, get a big light airs head sail and a good main etc.

 

I know you weren't looking at them, but something that is really wrong is people saying and thinking they are doing good for the environment by using lithium batteries. I.e. Hybrid cars. Does anyone know where the lithium comes from? The same people are probably anti mining etc (thinking coal, iron ore) but the lithium and other rare metals in the batteries have to be mined.

 

I've been to Bolivia, crossed the salare de uni, and seen a very big, very deep and sickeningly disgusting commercial mine. The salare de uni is one of the worlds biggest lithium reserves. In some of the poorer countries in the world, the most spectacular environmental damage can be done, and is being done mining the raw materials for these new "environmentally friendly" lithium batteries...

[Zozza 293]

Hi Partisan, I think that is a good call on a lot of fronts. Considering you already have a shiny, near new Beta engine (of which I am a little jealous, and have looked into closely to buying, accept in 35 hp), changing it out wouldn't have been so great.

 

From an environment a point of view, I understand the desire to do without oil / hydrocarbons, but the project to change to an electric drive would have resulted in the consumption of a lot of new goods. I don't think the reduction In use of deisel would have offset the additional consumption of stuff to install the electric drive, more so if you are frugal with your motoring and sail when ever you can. e.i. keep the hull clean, get a big light airs head sail and a good main etc.

 

I know you weren't looking at them, but something that is really wrong is people saying and thinking they are doing good for the environment by using lithium batteries. I.e. Hybrid cars. Does anyone know where the lithium comes from? The same people are probably anti mining etc (thinking coal, iron ore) but the lithium and other rare metals in the batteries have to be mined.

 

I've been to Bolivia, crossed the salare de uni, and seen a very big, very deep and sickeningly disgusting commercial mine. The salare de uni is one of the worlds biggest lithium reserves. In some of the poorer countries in the world, the most spectacular environmental damage can be done, and is being done mining the raw materials for these new "environmentally friendly" lithium batteries...

 

Hey Fish, thanks mate.

Look, I probably overstated the "going greenie" thing.  

And you speak a lot of truth. The oil and carbons burned to make batteries, solar panels, stainless steel etc etc, I mean, really, not only does the money not add up for me, to be honest the green thing does not add up either.

 

I mean, look at the biofuel situation... purportedly the amount of fossil fuel burned to clear  enough land and the machinery required to then make the biofuel itself in enough quantities, actually burns more f/fuels than it is supposed to save!

[wheels 543]

Some batteries will different amp hour ratings at different C rates. I deal with larger solar batteries and they are rated at a C100 rate. Those same batteries would have a lower amp rating at say a C20 rate. Meaning they will give up more power if you take a little over a long time rather than a lot over a short time.

 

Correct Grant. That is why you need to be able to read the little we words that tells you how they arrived at that. And to stir the clarity of the mud up further, C rating differs for different Battery types. What the real meaning of C rating is used for is the Charge/Discharge rate. It tells you how hard/fast you can charge a battery and how hard/fast you can draw the power back off again without damage. So the C100 you are using means the Batteries are true deep cycles. VERY deep cycle.

Now in saying all that, this is where the cleverness of the charger also comes in. The C rules can be broken IF the Charger is a real clever one and can monitor all sorts of things like Terminal Voltage and Temp and work out some sophisticated formulae. That is why you pay some big money for the expensive chargers, which are computer controlled.

And if the Mud is still not clear enough, Lithium Batteries use another figure...E Rate. E is similar to C. Except to be technically correct, C rate is about discharge, where as E rate is about Charge. So it all can get even more technical.

 

I do hope I have described the C rating clearly. If it is unclear or too complicated to anyone, please ask. I can easily add more mud to a complex example due to my Dyslexia. I can come at it it again from different angle if anyone wants.

[Tim C 23]

I think you may be heading down the wrong path with an electric outboard. It essentially is there to power a dinghy, and so has engine and prop size, as well as overall strength of the unit, to match that purpose and load.

Have you looked at something like this: http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/

( no I have no business relationship with them) But I have used their systems in two of my electric boats. If you have a through hull shaft you are nearly there in terms of installation, strength etc. And as soon as you are sailing you can generate from this motor. 

But also I agree with much of what's been said here. The battery technology is simply not there to provide adequate motoring time as yet. I think motoring back from the Barrier on a calm day is what would be expected, and only just possible if done well/right. 

[Black Panther 1,581]

To me the advantage of electric is mainly getting rid of a noisy, smelly, dirty piece of equipment that requires a lot of maintenance. There are other secondary things, but that's the main one. I'll keep watching this space. Some of the hybrid systems being offered look interesting.

[Addem 94]

Crikey this thread took on a life of it's own.

Some really interesting stuff though, and glad it got people to offer up some real interesting ideas

o

Crikey is right. This thread is so complex it's making my poor little layman head swim enough to need a life jacket. I to think that batteries were big heavy things you just connected up the same way as the one you're replacing. Now It seems I need a magnifying glass and a lawyer to visit my Favourite battery shop. Forewarned is forearmed even if I don't understand fully.

[Island Time 1,230]

A brief summary for batteries then.

 

Proper marine batteries ( they are internally re-inforced to keep the plates in place with harsh shocks) come in two styles, Deep Cycle - for house batts, and cranking for Starting.

There are 3 main Types - FLA - Flooded lead acid, AGM (absorbed glass mat), and Lithium. There are multiple types of both AGM and Lithium, and charging systems MUST be compatible and set up correctly to get good battery life, and even to prevent a fire!

 

For a cranking battery, 1st ensure it is a marine one, then look at the CCA rating (cold cranking amps). That is how much current it can supply for starting. As a min it must match what your engine specs require, or the rating of the old batt. Finally read the specs of the battery for charging voltages etc. Don't exceed the manufacturers specs, and don't trust anyone to tell you " that will be ok"!

 

For a deep cycle house batt, again, marine type. Correct voltage for your system, usually 12 or 24. Figures to look for are AH rating AND the C rating - how many amps over what time period. Make certain you are comparing apples with apples! Again, read the specs and buy or set charging system to suit.

 

It can be much more complex than that, but that is the basics.

[ex TL systems 63]

Well as to my idea of dragging an outboard to turn the prop and charge batteries, I tried with an 8hp tammy 2 stroke hi thrust prop. plugs out at 5/6  knots . wouldn,t turn the flywheel at all .So I am thinking that that idea won,t work unless you connect a alternator /generator direct to the top of the shaft on the leg with the motor removed, and I am not prepared to sacrifice the motor I have at the moment to try that. May go to a Air X wind gen as a more sensible power source that will work well if sailing at night.