Torqeedo outboard

[DrWatson 374]

I think I'd spend the money in this order:

 

New antifoul and make sure my underwater surfaces are smooth and fair.

 

Folding prop if I didn't have one.

 

New sails, incl. massive drifter on furler with prod, perfect mainsail, maybe new and bigger rig.

 

Anchor, Guitar, bottles of rum. 

 

Sail for a few years, 

 

After the above mentioned few years Buy electric outboard and 500Ah Li batteries + solar charge system + 2kW genset.

[wheels 543]

After the above mentioned few years Buy electric outboard and 500Ah Li batteries + solar charge system + 2kW genset.

 

If after those few years, that technology still exists. I am hoping we might be calling it old antiquated  y then

Other than that, great advice.

By the way Doc, how did your solar install up north work out?

[DrWatson 374]

Worked out pretty well, actually.

 

Got six panels (1500W) on the roof out of 8 - ran out of time for the last few as needed extra mounting equipment. Had far too many things to take care of in the 4 weeks we were home.

 

The charge controller and inverter from Victron are nice bits of kit, very happy with them.

 

Running a few lights in the evening, the freezer all night and a 24V waterpump for the dunny + misc electronics (laptop uses 85W!!), the charger dumps power into the batteries for about 30 min in the morning then floats off.

 

I think with 2000 Watts on the roof (even with 1500), we'll have heaps of capacity for the moment. The Batteries, 24V 220Ah, are plenty for the meantime. Will upgrade later to 48v system and 4800W ... just waiting for Elon Musk's batteries to come on the market.

[wheels 543]

All things being equal, which of course we all know are never that way, an FLA and AGM/Gel made to the exact same quality, charged and discharged to the exact same levels (providing that is within the designs limits of each) and proper electrolyte levels maintained in the FLA, should result in all batteries lasting to about the same age. There are some minor design differences with Casing size, where a FLA has an advantage with bigger case, and the AGM/Gel don't need that same requirement. Weight should be darn near the same, apart from a minor difference in the extra plastic for the case on an FLA.
The negatives of FLA is that the electrolyte levels need regular monitoring and topping. Low levels result in damage. The only main difference is that AGM/Gel cannot accept as high a charging current as FLA can. In fact FLA thrives on a hard charge current (as long as that does not exceed its max limit) because gassing causes the electrolyte to be stirred up. AGM/Gel don't requirement their electrolytes to be stirred up, and in fact, hard charging causing Gas bubbles is death to them. So a much lower charge current is required. Now that may not be an issue. It completely depends on the situation the installation is in and it's ultimate aim of performance. For a general Vessel House bank system, we have to consider how the bank is being charged. Running an engine, be it Genset or Main Engine/Alt, fuel costs money, engines cost money and everyone hates noise. So big requirement is to get power in and bank back to full capacity as soon as possible. If main charging is via shore power for an example, then that is not such an issue.
For LiPo, most installations couldn't justify the cost, IF the installation was about economy. But for the likes of KM, weight is a major issue, not worrying about running the bank down is a major issue and I would assume getting a charge back in would also be important. So LiPo is a worthwhile investment.

[Island Time 1,234]

KM, if your consumption figures while operating the boat with AP and Nav gear running etc work out as you expect in practice, you'll have done very well. In my experience though, often what the resellers/ dealers tell you is the power consumption is little better than a guess. The only way to be certain is to build the system as best you can, then test in the real world.

 

Also, it's not just LIthium based systems that need to be matched to charging and usage routines, ALL battery systems should be correctly matched to their chargers and control systems. Not to do so will cause the early demise of the batteries, or, if really bad, could cause a fire. Read the manufacturers info for the batts you have bought, and make certain the charging systems are configured for the battery you have. It's not hard, and can save you a lot of time money and aggro.

 

Just this weekend I helped a cruising boat that had consumed everything from the house bank. 1 v remained in 1 batt, 3 v in the other. The owner had no idea what was wrong, but he had flattened his batts so much that the alternator did not have the volts to excite it, hence no charging, no matter how long you ran the engine. Oh, and still left load on them with various circuits switched on.

 

For many, a proper battery computer, properly programmed is absolutely essential, IMO. Then a quick glance at the display shows what's used, what's available, and charge/discharge rates. Without a computer, how do you really know when you are approaching 80% or 50 % discharge, when you only have a voltmeter? To get this info you'd have to switch everything off for at least 30 mins, then take a voltage reading. It's just not practical. Voltage readings while under load, or without the rest period are totally meaningless. Guessing is what many do, usually badly.

 

Finally, that old analogue voltage meter many of you have, with the green, sometimes a bit of white, and red sectors - they can be out by a mile - and need to be regularly checked against a good multimeter - with the volts taken AT THE BATTERY TERMINALS, then again at the bus bars. Any real difference is due to undersized cables or poor wiring/termination, and should be located and fixed. Especially look at the terminations on the shunt for the voltmeter. The analogue meter itself can be adjusted with the little slotted screw at the base of the needle.

[wheels 543]

Excellent post IT. And to add one small but very important point to this

 

For many, a proper battery computer, properly programmed is absolutely essential, IMO. Then a quick glance at the display shows what's used, what's available, and charge/discharge rates. Without a computer, how do you really know when you are approaching 80% or 50 % discharge, when you only have a voltmeter?

You also have no way of knowing when the battery has fully charged. Ahrs out must be replaced with same Ahrs in, but due to losses and inefficiencies, the two do not add up to the same in time. Using a battery computer gives you that information.
This is because many Charge controllers don't know how to accurately work out when to go into Float Mode. Only a charge controller that the battery information can be programmed into can do that. Otherwise it is a bit dumb. It has no idea of the size of a bank it is connected to. So a Float stage is often based on time rather than actual battery absorption. Having a computer based unit, specific battery laws of behavior. To be fully accurate, discharge rate, temperature and capacity are all considered. Then it calculates the the proper charge points and the charger is controlled accordingly. I only know of one ALT charge controller that can do that, no Solar regs that I know of, three shore power chargers (that I know of) and the BEP Voltage display unit. Although I am not fully versed in just how much the BEP one calculates.
Using one of these things certainly opens you eyes as to how long it takes to fully restore a battery back to full capacity. Not doing so results in not having full capacity available to take out again.

[wheels 543]

 

With Lithium my understanding is you have to be very careful not to over charge them or bad things happen..... like the noise for fire truck sirens or BOOM. Everyone I've spoken to emphasized the need for a cut-out. Which will have me now asking about 'Do I need to float charge?'. The controllers will handle that, they are designed for use with Lithium but it will be nice to know all the same.

 

Inside every lithium battery is a complex circuit. But just how complex varies depending on the battery design and cost. There are a couple of things that will kill a LiPo. Heat and complete discharge. In larger more mission critical LiPo's, of which category I would expect yours to fit into, that circuit is basically a mini computer. It is monitoring and controlling each individual cell that make up the entire Battery. It should protect from over charging by both Current and Voltage. It should also prevent that battery from being fully discharged.

Do be aware that in most circumstances, as the battery supply current drops down, it will not act like a Lead Acid in which the light slowly get dimmer. Many of these LiPo's will work OK till they reach a low set level and then switch off. You might be right in the middle of something and then everything goes as if you turned of the switch.

Some of the more sophisticated LiPo's can even be plugged into a computer and the internal software adjusted. I have nit seen that on standard Batteries like of which you will have, but it is on the real smart devices used in the newer electric cars.

Now, it should also be mentioned that the LiPo's of which burst into spontaneous renditions of the 4th of July celebrations is not actually a fault of the charge current or over heating. Those were actually manufacturing issues.There are no plates inside these things like a Lead Acid has. It is a film held apart by other materials in the mix and if the battery has not been made to a very high standard, that micro gap can short out and that is what causes these things to burst into flame.

Of course, don't take it from me or anyone here, the best thing to do is ask the supplier, " has my battery got all the bells and whistles to protect it from over charging and full discharge?". I expect it will have, it certainly should have, but they are too darn expensive to go trusting my comments here.

And finally, no a LiPo does not need a continuous float charge like Lead Acid Batts do. I fact they do not like being left stored fully charged. It is best to store them with say 80% charge in them. Also in saying that, LiPo's have a continual rate of deterioration. Right from the time the thing was manufactured, it starts to break down. I am not really sure what these bigger batteries life expectancy is. Small ones like in say a battery drill is around 3 yrs or maybe a little more. I don't expect a larger one to be that much different.

[ex TL systems 63]

I,m thinking of turning a 4 stroke 9.9 yamaha outboard into electric, but as a generator rather than a consumer of 12v power, by removing the starter ,carb. exhaust waterpump impellor and pistons the prop should be able to turn the flywheel when sailing and at 6 knots should produce a steady 6 to 8 amps. The oil sump and pump should still keep everything lubricated and it can easily be raised or lowered to operate when needed which would be mainly at night on passage.Every boat that I have done longer trips on has had to run a motor at night for an hour or two.

There are good commercial units available but they are quite expensive and this is a bit of an experiment with gear that I already have. On a cat there is  room to fit it between the hulls. Possibly an electric contiki motor or small electric outboard would also work to produce power when pulled through the water?

[Black Panther 1,581]

Might need a bigger prop

[wheels 543]

I do hope it is due to the yamy being stuffed. It would make me cry to think you are wrecking a perfectly good outboard.
Will be interested in how it all works out.

[Steve Pope 243]

EX TL, You might also want to fit a prop that suits being driven rather than being designed to drive, if it is to be as efficient as possible.

[ex TL systems 63]

Well it has a pretty big hi thrust prop so it will spin the fly wheel faster with that, and I may have another smaller prop also, the motor runs fine but the starter motor needs work and cooling water is getting into the oil so as is it would be fairly expensive to have repaired and to sell on trademe would perhaps get a few hundred and even after pulling it apart it would probably be worth that for parts particularly for the gearbox. And I can test the theory before pulling it all apart by just removing the sparkplugs and seeing if it works when sailing. 

 

  But I will see where it will fit on the boat and not rush into wrecking the motor , it may be too unwieldy and not worth the hassle in the end,for something you may not need that often, {plenty of solar panels] other option is a wind gen and or a small portable generator which is handy to have anyway

[grant 40]

Ampair used to produce a towed generator, I think it was a variation on their stand wind genny that had a prop on a rope towed astern.  Id ea was when you got to your destination you put a set of bladse on it and hung it in the rigging, definitely aimed more at long term cruisers than the casual sailor

[erice 732]

had a pic somewhere of the idec trimaran?

 

flying on 1 hull with a small sail-drive type elec gen sticking out below the main hull

[ex TL systems 63]

done right they are a very effective way of producing power on a sailboat that is sailing, saw a nice one at the boat show but it was over $2000 maybe even 4000. Looked like a small transom hung rudder with a contiki motor and prop on the end.

[Island Time 1,234]

Or way more. See www.wattandsea.com

[ex TL systems 63]

thats the one if it was $1000 it would be great . the outboard idea would be a lot more drag and turbulence  but with no other props in the water its not too bad and hey its on a Wharram I don,t want anything that is too flash, or worth more than the rest of the boat.

[erice 732]

thinking about it

 

i think stevep may be right about needing to change the prop 

 

probably to something smaller with less pitch + blade area

 

as a motor the prop needs to move a lot of water way faster than boat speed

 

so the prop is large, coarse pitch, with big blades

 

and the flywheel will be geared for that

 

as a generator the prop will only turn at whatever boat-speed water flow is 

 

maybe a third or less? 

 

so the flywheel will struggle to turn fast enough

 

the wattandsea props look to have very different props that are easy to spin fast with ony water flow 

 

https://www.emarineinc.com/categories/hydrogenerator

 

but even then they won't start charging until 3kn

 

your standard prop may need  >3x that

 

so minimum 9kn before it spins quick enough

 

and it is a wharram, even if it got to 9kn

 

once you swung that huge brake down

 

it's going to drag off a few knots

 

maybe using a prop from a smaller outboard?

 

or even a torqueedo prop

 

overseas i have a torqueedo type prop i intended to try on a 2 stroke weedeater to make a canoe long tail

 

will try to bring it back next year

[DrWatson 374]

Eric, I'm not sure your thinking is right on the prop size thing. The bigger the prop, the more leverage it will have to turn the flywheel. At least that's the way I see it.

 

A high pitch with large surface area will give maximum push on the gearing... 

 

pitch will alter speed. 

 

Any one else got some numbers to clarify this?

[erice 732]

http://www.nauticexpo.com/boat-manufacturer/hydrogenerator-boats-20920.html

 

http://www.save-marine.com/en/our-solution

Our new proprietary technology produces electricity from slow flowing water. 

low drag

Our solution generates a low drag through different characteristics of our technology :

• Its very low inertia,
• A particularly optimized propeller,
• The profile of the propeller.

 

 

the watt and sea prop needs 3 kn water speed to start turning the outboard generator effectively

 

a standard yamaha 9.9hp 4 stroke prop

 

imho

 

these blades are just going to have too much drag to turn the flywheel at the speed it was designed to start outputting electricity 

 

things look even worse for a high thrust prop

 

 

but hope the experiment gets done