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Handicaps and how they work


boots

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After all the years I have been racing somtimes the handicaps leave me scratching my head. The Ryc winter races in Adiv one boat went from .820 to .770 between races 7&8, that boat had a bad start due to tide and wind in light conditions I have not seen handicaps move like that. Any comment or in the know with it?

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Adjusting handicaps should taken over at least 3 races with any spikes taken out.

 

Years ago, in the good old days when I was the class handicapper I would do a calculation for every boat for each race to work out their adjusted handicap to match the first boats elapsed time. Then get the mean for 3 races.

 

I believe Sailware ??? does this for you now these days.

 

Whats was wrong with the calculator, or even the slideruler. :lol: :lol:

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That does appear a bit extreme Boots. Could be a simple case of the cock-ups have come for a visit. Ask the club nicely 'Is that right or was there a input error?'

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After all the years I have been racing somtimes the handicaps leave me scratching my head. The Ryc winter races in Adiv one boat went from .820 to .770 between races 7&8, that boat had a bad start due to tide and wind in light conditions I have not seen handicaps move like that. Any comment or in the know with it?

 

there are two kinds of handicaps,

 

performance based handicaps share the prizes between all the boats.

 

rule based handicaps make the richest guy win.

 

:wink:

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Such cynicism in one so young Samin.

 

Boots, I'm assuming your question isn't rhetorical

so here's an answer with the nausiating detail.

 

don't know for certain if the below applies to Richmond, but I suspect it does.

 

A handicap is usually the average of a 'sailed to calculation' for the last x races sailed in a series.

 

For each race the sailed to number is calculated by

 

(1) determining a 'mid point' boat, often the middle boat on corrected time

(2) multiplying the mid point boats handicap for that race by the ratio between their elapsed time and each other boats time, e.g., if the first place boat took half the elapsed time of the mid boat, her sailed to number is twice the handicap for the mid boat.

 

A handicap change for each race is affected by three things :

 

(1) how good, or bad, the last race was

(2) how good, or bad, the oldest race (which is no longer being counted) was

(3) the number of races in the average (that x mentioned earlier)

 

If, for example, a boat sails to 0.68 instead of an expected 0.83 and only three races were being used to calculate her handicap, then this sort of movement would be seen, assuming no manual intervention by a handicapper.

 

Hope this helps.

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Have a look at the racetrack analysis from the crew front page, gives an alternative view on handicapping. Seems to have a bias towards multihulls, with 8 in the top 10!

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Adjusting handicaps should taken over at least 3 races with any spikes taken out.

 

Years ago, in the good old days when I was the class handicapper I would do a calculation for every boat for each race to work out their adjusted handicap to match the first boats elapsed time. Then get the mean for 3 races.

 

I believe Sailware ??? does this for you now these days.

 

Whats was wrong with the calculator, or even the slideruler. :lol: :lol:

 

Method E in yachtsys averages the last 1-5 (ie you choose if you want 1, 2,3, 4, or 5) race "sailed-to" values to get the new handicap. You can configure it to include the handicap for the last race in the average (so last 4 race sailed-to values and the last tcf = average of 5 values). Also, you can set "clamp" limits so if a boat has a very good or bad sailed-to performance (spikes) you can clamp it at the limit - this prevents these abnormal performances causing wild swings in the handicap. You can make it exclude altogether those performances that are really shocking or blindingly good.

 

The sailed-to value is calculated as the handicap a boat would have needed to place first equal with the reference boat. In this method, the reference should be the boat that placed nea the middle of the fleet. Some argue it should be the middle boat. Some argue it should be the boat placed around 45 - 48% in the fleet. 30% (ie the boat plaed about 1/3 down the fleet) is definitely too high, causing a downward trend in all handicaps. Whether it's 30% or 48% makes no material difference to the argument that one boat gets stuck as the reference boat - in something like 14 races with a fleet of around 15-20 boats, 8 boats were the reference boat once or twice.

 

Properly run, the only way a performance handicap shares the prizes around is by providing a another prize pool in addition to IRC and/or PHRF - it shoudln't give the prize to a different boat each time any more than IRC does so. The boat that is sailed consistently well, or is consistently improving (so it encourages new sailors where say IRC might not), should win the series. :thumbup:

 

Seems to me the effective difference between Method E and Racetrack is Method E is adjusted after each race, while Racetrack is adjusted monthly?

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Dr Bob,

You obviously have a very thorough knowledge of how Yacht Systems handicapping software works. Anytime you would like to give me a lesson I would be very appreciative of your help.

 

Boat Slut,

At the time of race 8 the commodore was in Wanaka and completely unaware of how low his handicap. Dispite your inference that the commodore gets some sort of preferencial treatment you would still be welcome to come for a sail on my boat sometime. Give me a call 021-347-334

 

Boots,

RYC tries very hard to run fair races with an even playing field for all yachts. Dispite the fact that a computer does most of the work, the results still need to be checked for anomalies by a human. The reason for the large swing may have been caused by the 'clamp' limit refered to by Dr Bob.

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So the conclusion I have come up with from all the imformation put forward by all is the system needs a limit clamp to stop the spikes. drbob has pointed out the relevant details thank you boots

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The PHRF system is working very well if you race us.

 

You can only do 2 of the 3 Simrad races where we have to do all 3 and yet you'll still beat us on PHRF :?

 

I found a cool new thing when I was playing on Race Track comparing PHRF to each boat RT rating.

is your boat Suburban Reptile?

because Suburban Reptile has a PHRF lower than its RT rating? or am I reading it wrong?

 

 

http://www.racetrack.org.nz/compare_rat ... rt2=1&pg=4

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The PHRF system is working very well if you race us.

 

You can only do 2 of the 3 Simrad races where we have to do all 3 and yet you'll still beat us on PHRF :?

 

I found a cool new thing when I was playing on Race Track comparing PHRF to each boat RT rating.

is your boat Suburban Reptile?

because Suburban Reptile has a PHRF lower than its RT rating? or am I reading it wrong?

 

 

http://www.racetrack.org.nz/compare_rat ... rt2=1&pg=4

 

I think you are. My theory, and that's about all it is, is 2 fold.

 

One being, we have done a few races, 2 specifically, that everything was close to ideal for a 930 in what could be regarded as knot a hard out race fleet. While we weren't pushing the boat (no need or desire at the time, it was more just a fun thing) we do think we aim it smartly so we did clean up somewhat large, one massively. Those results were included in our PHRF review and were a big bit of it, we don't do many races in which results get into the PHRF system. Now when racing in a harder race fleet we are carrying a softer race result driven H/c.

 

The 2nd being 930's have very small window in which you could say they go well when only 1 or 2 up, they do need rail meat to get any power. With this last Simrad having a such lot of hard on into slop, which is about as evil as it can get for us, it just makes it all look even worse.

 

While we are pretty much over it and realise in the eyes of YNZ 930's aren't glamour boats so don't get looked at closely, it is annoying knowing before you start you have no show at anything and I don't do 'participation' at all well. Definitely knot a believer of this bullshit 'it's all about competing rather than winning' crap.

 

And I know there are boats knot bothering to even race due to this very issue. I'm just one who is knot shy in speaking up in the hope someone somewhere realises this issue is race fleet negative.

 

I know it's a tricky one but I still struggle to see why individual Yacht Clubs and RT can adjust H/c's each race but a computer driven PHRF system can't. If it did I think you'd find less bitching and bigger race fleets, that can only be good.

 

And that my dear Samin is why we aren't seen in many races. Why race knowing you have no show at all when we can just go for a nice ticky tour instead, which is pretty much just what we and others are doing.

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Or you could harden TFU, quit moaning and go racing.

It's self fulfulling - we don't race because we've got a dodgy handicap, but how is the handicapper supposed to have a chance if you only race a couple of times a year?

In a perfect system where the handicaps are spot on, if there are 20 boats in a fleet you should only win once every 20 races. Which also means a lot of out-the-back-door results.

 

Yeah the systems aren't perfect but man up and take it on the chin!

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Yeah KnotMe, HTFU why don't you! You are pathetic, all this whinging!

 

At the end of the day the statistics highlighted by Samin indicate that your PHRF is within 1.89% of where it should be.

 

1.89% !

 

Come on man, what is all your bleating about having no chance before you leave the dock?

 

Also there are over 50 boats listed who have far more to complain about than yourselves!

 

1.89%, a couple of good shifts, a good start, some good crew work at rounding marks,

1.89% that is nothing !

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Interesting table Sam. If you look at the order of Highest Racetrack vs Lowest PHRF the big boats are very well "subsidised". In fact the top 20 is virtually A division.

 

Could that be because these boats are the kind that get around the track quickly and aren't out there when the wind dies off in races?

 

That would mean that their PHRF is actually correct for a race sailed in constant breeze but beacuse they finish races in breeze it makes their Racetrack handicap correct for real life?

 

Its an interesting RT page that. I thought my PHRF was too high and I would have to do some more racing so I could ask them to review it, but it looks like it might be about right for a fully crewed High-n-Fibre. Hopefully my shorthanded PHRF will drop as sportboats don't go so good without heavys on the side!

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Oh calm down and stop being so fecking selfish lads.

 

If I despised it that much I wouldn't be out there at all or I'd have a crack at appealing it. The results certainly would suggest we have grounds on which to do so. Also we entered the Simrad fully knowing we would knot get into the top 1/2 of the fleet, yet still went. I don't think we have had a top 1/2 finish yet but are still out there. But it is nice to know that we should get at least one sometime in the next 4 to 5 years, we look forward to it with eager anticipation Thanks RC ;)

 

I'm using me as an easy example as to why many just aren't racing anymore or as much as they would like. Or are you happy with declining fleets?

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Time to roll her into the shed mate. Hopefully you will emerge with a speed increase but at the very lease you will be so damn grateful to be out of the morass of dust and fumes and sailing in fresh air again that handicap results will not even feature in your thinking for months to come. :thumbup:

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