Call for Licensing

[harrytom 642]

Thank you Crazyhorse and Rehab..  They dont need Police or AC parking people.  It is private land (just happens to be the Council) and they set the rules for parking.

 

Yes Rehab I have raised it with the Marina and I already stated what they told me.  If they don't know their own Terms and Conditions they should find another job, it is their contract with the 1000+ boat owners.

 

This is not about the Marina. this is another example of why people who think an extra rule or law will fix the last rule/law that is being ignored need to get their heads read.  If people see no enforcement or education then why would they change their behavior?  I already display the appropriate sized name on my boat, prominently in three locations.  What will a license do?

Licence will do nothing unless its registered somewhere??or you get followed in to the marina then westhaven will have your details but still complainant could do nothing as westhaven cannot hand over your details,but if in a national register ,run by???would be able to handout info if from MNZ/Police??

[Fogg 427]

Personally I prefer all traffic to pass close as to me rather than distance off. Close means their wash all over in 10sec as against the rock and rolling for ages when they are further off. Try it and see for yourself.

That is absolutely nuts logic. You’ve obviously never been swimming or diving around your boat and never been worried about a loved one (or yourself) being run over.

 

I’ve heard it all now...

[Fogg 427]

For anyone else who’s in denial that there’s a problem and thinks it ok to just ignore the problem and carry on as-is, look at this. You’ll see that even do-called well intentioned experiences slippers can kill people accidentally. Let alone the idiots.

 

https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/commercial/safety/accidents-reporting/accident-reports/documents/Waiatea-041063-mnz-accident-report2004.pdf

[Black Panther 1,581]

A person died 15 years ago. Anecdotes are not evidence.

[Fogg 427]

Someone else here posted a reply along the lines of “there is no problem here just ignore the muppets and carry on sailing.”

 

Which is the worst kind of ‘bury your head in the sand’ in denial behaviour in the world.

 

For every death Luke this one there are s ton of near misses. Having spent a month in the BOI this summer I personally witnessed several.

 

If you want a more recent example of a highly dangerous situation that could easily have led to another fatality look at this from about a month ago:

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=12186678

[Black Panther 1,581]

What I would like to see is a serious statistical analysis.

[harrytom 642]

For anyone else who’s in denial that there’s a problem and thinks it ok to just ignore the problem and carry on as-is, look at this. You’ll see that even do-called well intentioned experiences slippers can kill people accidentally. Let alone the idiots.

 

https://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/commercial/safety/accidents-reporting/accident-reports/documents/Waiatea-041063-mnz-accident-report2004.pdf

Faults on both sides, just wait till breathe testing comes in like Aussie?

[Fish 0]

Someone else here posted a reply along the lines of “there is no problem here just ignore the muppets and carry on sailing.”

 

Which is the worst kind of ‘bury your head in the sand’ in denial behaviour in the world.

 

I asked the question:

"What problem are you trying to solve?"

Which I think is a perfectly legitimate question to ask, given the palava that licencing would entail.

 

While the first example is clearly a tragedy, it is not immediately apparent to me, based on those two articles, what problem you are trying to solve.

It certainly appears that diving is very dangerous. I'd think that, based on this elevated risk of death from diving, that diving should be banned.

 

Its not clear how boater licencing would have mitigated either of those examples. Using car licencing as an example, we still have fatal accidents with licenced drivers, and we still have dangerous, speeding, licenced drivers.

 

And in seriousness, the problem may be that dive flags simply aren't visible enough. If you're dead upwind or downwind, can you see a flag?

 

And what is the speed limit within range of a dive flag? 5 knts? Its not possible to spot a rising diver underwater, so I would have thought 5 knts was a futile (but legal) limit. 

[Crazyhorse 47]

I asked the question:

"What problem are you trying to solve?"

Which I think is a perfectly legitimate question to ask, given the palava that licencing would entail.

 

While the first example is clearly a tragedy, it is not immediately apparent to me, based on those two articles, what problem you are trying to solve.

It certainly appears that diving is very dangerous. I'd think that, based on this elevated risk of death from diving, that diving should be banned.

 

Its not clear how boater licencing would have mitigated either of those examples. Using car licencing as an example, we still have fatal accidents with licenced drivers, and we still have dangerous, speeding, licenced drivers.

 

And in seriousness, the problem may be that dive flags simply aren't visible enough. If you're dead upwind or downwind, can you see a flag?

 

And what is the speed limit within range of a dive flag? 5 knts? Its not possible to spot a rising diver underwater, so I would have thought 5 knts was a futile (but legal) limit.

 

A dive flag may not be visible, but at 50m of another vessel you should be doing only 5kts anyway and how many do!? Thats what needs to be fixed and if that takes licences, registration or both I am all for it so long as its policed, the fees are paying for prosecutions and the fines and seizures going towards enforcing the rules. We have been hit THREE times, had our anchor pulled up and mooring twice (reason why we left the Tamaki River). There are far more vehicles on the road than boats on the water and apart from Auckland and Wellington, nothing is policed, not so on the the roads! Sure, its not a major issue now but boy is it going to be as our population balloons and everyman and his dog aspires to get out on the water in ever increasing sized vessels with little or no experience or ability with a total don't care attitude. If licencing at leased makes some aware of what damage their wakes can do or who is the stand on vessel then GREAT!

[Beccara 25]

Where'ed that 48% number come from KN? NZTA puts motorcyclist either at fault or the primary party to blame at 55% and only 36% where the motorcyclist wasn't to blame for 2012-2016.

 

I also wonder what happened around 2005, Since then 40 years and over are the single largest group being killed

 

https://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/68735c3ffc/Motorcycles-2017.pdf

[Fish 0]

A dive flag may not be visible, but at 50m of another vessel you should be doing only 5kts anyway and how many do!? Thats what needs to be fixed and if that takes licences, registration or both I am all for it so long as its policed, the fees are paying for prosecutions and the fines and seizures going towards enforcing the rules. 

Yeah but in the example of the launch that killed the diver:

1) the launch was found to not be speeding - varying accounts of speed between 4-8 knts, but the investigation determined it was about 6.5 knts based on hull speed and the wake observed - technically speeding, but an order of magnitude different to the cat that got chased by the Cops doing 40 knts through boats with divers down).

2.) the skipper had CG Day Skipper - so had a suitable qualification that any licencing would probably require as a max.

3) the skipper had 30 yrs experience. He also had a dive ticket so knew what dive flags looked like and what they were for.

4) the dive flags on two of those boats were put below the flybridge, and were hanging limp (no bar to hold them up without wind) - so the skipper could not have known there were divers down (even if he were licenced)

 

So there is nothing in that example that would warrant licencing. At all.

If anything, it shows that dive flags are insufficient, and / or that diving is so dangerous it should be banned.

 

No-one here has put an arguement that shows what would be gained by licencing.

There are a multitude of examples of what would be gained by enforcing existing rules.

There is a compelling argument that rego numbers would make it substantially easier to enforce existing rules.

There are already rules that say you can't just go around crashing into other boats, its the enforcement of those rules that is the issue.

[harrytom 642]

perhaps dive flags need to be made out of ply or simular that slot together mounted above cabin so can be seen in all directions?

How many times have you seen a fizzy with the flag mounted on stern,

This is not a licencing issue of such more of a education issue,no flag can pass at 50m 30knots dive flag can pass at 50m but doing 5knots  which is more danderous? I would suggest the 50m at 30knots due to wake etc,so perhaps our maritime laws need looking at as well

[Crazyhorse 47]

How many have seen boats on the plane flying a dive flag! Crazy. A bit like fishing boats with day shapes welded in place.

[Elenya 33]

There s no requirement for any certification for a recreational vessel in nz regardless of size. If the vessel is of a size that requires a pilot then you will be required to take a pilot. This size limit varies in different ports.

[GregW 28]

No-one here has put an arguement that shows what would be gained by licencing.

There are a multitude of examples of what would be gained by enforcing existing rules.

There is a compelling argument that rego numbers would make it substantially easier to enforce existing rules.

There are already rules that say you can't just go around crashing into other boats, its the enforcement of those rules that is the issue.

+1 on the above.

Enforce the existing rules before adding a bunch of new regs. 

[Crazyhorse 47]

+1 on the above.

Enforce the existing rules before adding a bunch of new regs.

 

Then how do you get enforcement?

[ex Elly 197]

There s no requirement for any certification for a recreational vessel in nz regardless of size. If the vessel is of a size that requires a pilot then you will be required to take a pilot. This size limit varies in different ports.

 

Did you forget about jetskis?  These need to be registered, under council bylaws for lots of councils in NZ.

[Fish 0]

Then how do you get enforcement?

How would you enforce having a licence?

[Guest 000]

Much is made of the fact that that rules/regulations/licencing is unenforceable, and without a lot of expensive additional resources, this is true. And it is why I favour licencing the skipper after completing an education course relative to the vessel he intends to operate.

We have been cycle touring on the coromandel and have been really impressed with the careful overtaking and consideration shown us by motorists. Since this has been achieved only by education and not enforcement, education obviously works. Equally obviously, not for the moron minority but i think we will be grateful for any on-water improvement in behaviour we can get.

[Fish 0]

We have been cycle touring on the coromandel and have been really impressed with the careful overtaking and consideration shown us by motorists. Since this has been achieved only by education and not enforcement, education obviously works. Equally obviously, not for the moron minority but i think we will be grateful for any on-water improvement in behaviour we can get.

Given the type of roads in the Coromandel (which I've been sampling yesterday and today), I doubt its good manners that is making vehicles pass you carefully, but the knowledge that if I (and other cars) don't pass you extremely carefully, you will be dead.

The number of roads around here with the four road warning signs on the one board of steep, windy, narrow and 'no good for wheelies' is unique. And that is just the dodgy roads. A standard road on the Coromandel is enough to put the shits up the average Auckland driver. (not sure how tourists get on either).

There are plenty of signs regarding courteous driving around these parts. I also note there are suitable signs around boat ramps covering the basics of boats passing boats, boats crossing, use of lights and night etc. Its amazing how education can work when enough effort is put into it...