wheels 543 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Maybe it does in the very beginning BP, but it ends up being detrimental to the larger issue in many ways.1: Nothing has changed in regards to plastic in the Environment.2: Many now that believe they have "saved the Turtles", thus their work is done.3: No one understands that in removing one problem has created another far worse one. And that last point is common to many of the issues the World is facing today, re the advancement in "green technology". Electric car being one of the major ones. We the general public are fed the idea that electric will clean up our air. Which it will in one sense, but the majority fail to understand the harm that is being done behind the scenes and the harm that will continue to be done in the future when these cars are suddenly not worth repairing in a very short number of years. All the while, we have a far better technology of Hydrogen power that is being pushed below the surface.Back to the plastic argument, Nations need to work at solving this problem of countries pushing rubbish into the sea. Even our Pacific Islands have major problems and money would be far better spent by Gvts by supplying a Ship that removes the Refuse from all these Islands, instead of making $100billion available for a "lolly scramble". Gvts would be far better putting money into Waste disposal for the Countries that push their rubbish into the Sea. There are solutions available. And for our own little Country, we need an infrustructure that promotes and aids recycling rather than based on profit. The are three Councils in the SI that do well in this regards. Southland, Buller and Greymouth. Greymouth still collect all the old TV's that are sent to their landfill and send them to us for recycling. We get a Container full every 2 or 3 months.Westport and Southland sort through every piece of rubbish before it reaches the landfill and sends away anything and everything that can be recycled.As for the rest down here, they are not interested. They say the the plastic going to landfill os non recoverable. In fact what the real reason is, they have a contractor that makes money from the weight they send to landfill. It is in their interest to dump. Recycling does not earn them anything.I shall step off my soap box now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 642 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 There was a news article last Friday that some outfit.council??was to offer 10 C per item?? When you buy a fridge etc I take the packaging back to the store.do not need it so don't produce it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
darkside 61 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Wheels I was quite keen on hydrogen as well until I found this article. The Hindenburg reference is just silly but the efficiency losses in distribution are quite a problem. https://thedriven.io/2018/11/14/the-ice-age-is-over-why-battery-cars-will-beat-hybrids-and-fuel-cells/ The main graph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Black Panther 1,581 Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 I dont see hydrogen as an energy source but a storage medium. The hydrogen has to come from somewhere and that requires energy, normally in the form of electricity Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Technology is changing at a rapid pace. It is hard to keep up.Firstly to storing Hydrogen.In the past it has been a real issue and the main reason why Hydrogen powered vehicles have not been a go. But new technology making storage safe has changed all that. Some of you may know that Acetylene is very dangerous to store under pressure. Virtually impossible infact. To make it safe, the inside of a Pressure vessel is filled with a special filler material. This then allows the Acetylene to remain stable under pressure.They have found a similar method to store Hydrogen thus making it safe, cheap and a complete game changer.Making Hydrogen via electrolysis of water is old technology and yes it was power hungry. That is not how it is made anymore. In fact there are some very cool, exciting, (well they are to me) methods of making Hydrogen. Yes it does still take some energy, but that energy is paid off by the major advantages of what comes from Hydrogen when used for Fuel. For example, when you combust Hydrogen, you get nothing but water. Pure clean ready to drink water. That has to be a big plus for a start.There are many different ways energy can be produced with Hydrogen. A plain old combustion engine can be powered from it, with very little modification needed for the vehicle. Just storage of the gas. Or a Hydrogen fuel cell can be used producing electricity directly from Fuel via passing it through a special catalytic membrane. And in saying that, Hydrogen can be " pulled" from chemicals without it actually being Hydrogen. There is a Hydrogen fuel cell that uses Methanol as the raw fuel. The Hydrogen is stripped from the Ethanol. These generators are actually available to the public including Boaties as a generator. But the Ethanol could only be bought from the manufacturer and that made it an expensive item to use.Another very cool idea is that Co2 can be pulled directly from the air and then Hydrogen added to it to make a Hydrocarbon chain again. By making just the chain/s required, one can make very high grades of Fuels to Oils to whatever one wants to make from Hydrocarbons.there is much much more that can be done with Hydrogen production.Trust me, Hydrogen is the way of the future. But if we are not careful, it is going to be like the Beta/VHF tape thing years ago, where a poor system won the race and a far superior system went down the path of extinction. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,222 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Agreed Wheels, to me it seems that electric cars may have already won. Even though Hydrogen is better.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
darkside 61 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Wheels which companies are building hydrogen cars using anything other than a fuel cell powering an EV? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Wheels which companies are building hydrogen cars using anything other than a fuel cell powering an EV? I would doubt any are building new vehicles with H powered combustion engines. Sorry if my early morning rambling suggested such. I was think retro fitting to existing vehicles. There is little point going down that road continuing with the combustion engine. They are expensive to build and very inefficient to run due to friction from moving parts and heat from the combustion equaling lost energy. The fuel cell will most certainly be the main power source in any new vehicle and if anyone was at Field days, they would have seen the unvailing of the Hyundia Hydrogen powered vehicle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beccara 25 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Hydrogen's will fail simply because of the infrastructure needed. Before you can even have early adopters you need the infrastructure, Electrics make sense because the infrastructure change was already done and in place, Early adopters didn't need anything new in place to use it. The next phase being early majority needed simple DC charges that can be retrofitted into existing places. Depending on how you think mass uptake would be handled you're either talking small scale onsite production + storage retrofit into suitable places or mass storage and transport both of which require significant upfront investment Not sure I agree with the idea that the cars won't be worth repairing, Replacement battery packs are out there and being done, We're already starting to see upgrade packs being in the prototype stage. There's a healthy secondary market for off-grid/grid-tie solar guys building packs etc etc. As for "harm behind the scenes" you'll have to be more specific Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 The infrastructure is taking place. Yes it is behind that of Electric, but it was not all that long ago that people complained there were no charge stations for electric.Also remember that the World is not going to build or not build something depending on where NZ is at. One of the biggest issues overseas countries have in relation to electric vehicles is the power. For instance, Canada has said that they need to build 1.5 power stations per year at a cost of $13billion for quite a number of years to come. I don't see that happening.What is the harm behind the scenes? the enormous cost to the environment and to workers in the Countries like China etc digging the raw materials out of the ground to produce the batteries.The cost of batteries is the biggest issue and many cars have the battery as part of the body design. Good luck trying to get something to retrofit. The Nissan Leaf has a 24Kw battery and replacement cost is US$5500. The Chevy Bolt has a 60Kw pack and that the replacement pack is US$16K. The Prius was around NZ$18K and due to that cost, many cowboys have had a go at making up packs for it. Against all warnings in the industry not to due to the dangers of it going wrong.Now take the case of normal write down value of second hand vehicles. Even though EV's are expensive, they will likely lose value faster due to the speed of technology. Batteries are expected to last aprox 8yrs. So who is going to spend $20K on a battery for second hand vehicle of 8 to 10yrs of age? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
idlerboat 116 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 The following quote by wheels ,is a comment that I understand. It reflects a real frustration . But I have a different view and would like to see what people think. What gets me really annoyed is the idiots that targeted the plastic bag and had it banned because they sensationalized the effect it has in our environment. They are not idiots. ...and you are wrong about the sensationalist aspect. It is all true. The fact that you have possibly identified it as of low empirical importance to the overall problem in your perspective, it dose not change the fact that it IS STILL a problem. It is a common but pointless criticism that , "this is unjustified action on a small problem because it is diluting the action on a bigger problem".... (Unless you are personally absolutely invested and action-ed on what you perceive is the bigger problems solution...) It is far more reasonable to say " its good that the plastic bag is being discouraged , BUT "insert more important problem and action here" I will go further. It is important to understand what your personal end game is in this kind of debate. Small comments on both "sides" have had devastating effects on the overal balance and potential outcomes. A purely scientific perspective is not stopping us from losing what I believe to be a bleak future. By that , I mean "advertising has never let the fact that a "fact is a fact" effect the fact that they can effect facts....." !! Or.. if you care you have to be a communicator for change that works... The plastic bag is just a tiny tiny fraction of what is a real problem out there. But because they sensationalized the plastic bag, people now think they have done something great while in fact, nothing has actually been achieved at all. NO NO NO... That is not a human effect and cause statement... that is only true in a flat lab environment.... WE (and you) dont really know what the "biggest issue" is... ( it may be a rogue meteor for all we know)... Huge change comes from very small changes.. That is a fact ! Humans have never rested on a past achievement...so the idea that they would except that the planet is saved due to the reduction of plastic bags is not true. But if you create "an atmosphere of hopelessness , "" so crap, that I might as well get mackas and buy a big f*ck off car...who cares...we all know we are stuffed..."" got told that its no problem use as many plastic bags as you like...that wont make any difference...in fact its all a lie" In fact, even to make that plain brown paper bag is 7 times more harmful to our environment than the plastic bag is. now that is not good science .... Not in the context of this debate. "Make" is only part of the equation.... We have no idea what the long term ramifications of micro plastics are...but is is looking like it will not be good... Banning plastic items is not a cure, because the alternatives are often worse. Taking far better care of discarding stuff is the cure. And that entails everyone, from the people that manufacture ensuring there is no waste escaping to the environment, to the person who buys and discards an item at the end of it's life, (like not throwing it out the car window) right through to those that are charged with putting that discarded item into a landfill/recycling it. Care is not taken because care is a non recoverable cost. NO NO NO that is not a scientific anwser !! you are still introducing those elements to a closed system environment , once there..... Now you have gone "human and emotional" As for alternatives ? That is what we should be talking about. Oh and by the way, dumped plastics is just one issue. The other issue is the people/countries that burn plastics and other waste out in the open air. The toxins released into the environment are extremely harmful. More so than the floating plastic. But it is not seen, so is not considered. Totally agree... 1 Quote MultiQuote Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wheels 543 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 As per usual, you can't see the wood for the tree's.Sorry I commen.... no wait, I am sorry "I" commented. I broke my personal resolution of not getting into these silly arguments, but was lured in because it was not down in "that" Forum.I will go back to commenting on technical only. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beccara 25 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 The infrastructure is taking place. Yes it is behind that of Electric, but it was not all that long ago that people complained there were no charge stations for electric. Also remember that the World is not going to build or not build something depending on where NZ is at. One of the biggest issues overseas countries have in relation to electric vehicles is the power. For instance, Canada has said that they need to build 1.5 power stations per year at a cost of $13billion for quite a number of years to come. I don't see that happening. What is the harm behind the scenes? the enormous cost to the environment and to workers in the Countries like China etc digging the raw materials out of the ground to produce the batteries. The cost of batteries is the biggest issue and many cars have the battery as part of the body design. Good luck trying to get something to retrofit. The Nissan Leaf has a 24Kw battery and replacement cost is US$5500. The Chevy Bolt has a 60Kw pack and that the replacement pack is US$16K. The Prius was around NZ$18K and due to that cost, many cowboys have had a go at making up packs for it. Against all warnings in the industry not to due to the dangers of it going wrong. Now take the case of normal write down value of second hand vehicles. Even though EV's are expensive, they will likely lose value faster due to the speed of technology. Batteries are expected to last aprox 8yrs. So who is going to spend $20K on a battery for second hand vehicle of 8 to 10yrs of age? Yes the infrastructure is kinda somewhat there but it's been shown to be very costly to deploy, Station costs are $2-3million USD. Have ongoing electrical costs due to current storage temps being -40c. When compared to EV station costs of around $30k USD for Rapid and under $1k USD for slow (typically the ones we're seeing deployed at malls etc) the costs clearly show why EV's are leading the adoption rate. On the grid side of things, I can't speak to that Canada figure as I can't find anything about it on the net. Transpower just came out a few days ago and had this to say about high ev uptake (50%) "This would be unlikely to impact on the operation of the power system, given the distribution of load across New Zealand" Ironically re-purposing old EV batteries for grid storage is listed way to improve grid stability and handling of line failures or generation problems, Even in places with grid issues reported impacted is measured in "several hundred euros per EV" The environmental cost of the batteries is coming down, It was never that horrific to begin with tho, We're talking typically under 15kg of pure lithium in a battery. Currently around 60% of the battery is recyclable with almost no process loss and the tech for lithium extraction is already shown in the lab and currently being worked on scaling to industrial levels. Having said that Hydrogen currently isn't exactly green either, The most widely used tech today is steam-natural gas (methane) reclamation, A process which produces 8-10 tonnes of co2 per tonne of H2. That 1 tonne of H2 will get you about 125,000km worth of driving if we believe the sticker label, At worst case EV's are pulling around 20kwh per 100km or for 125,000km around around 25mwh, Which in NZ is about 3.2 tonnes of co2, In France is under 2 tonnes. Yes it's going to depend on your electricity source. As for the costs of replacement? The Leaf battery has a Nissan refirb pack for $3k USD, The pack is using recycled and re-manufactured batteries, Is it as good as a brand new pack? Yes but the cycle life may be 10-20% lower. The 8 year life span thing is just flat out wrong, I own a 2011 leaf which has just had it's 8th birthday. It's at 78% of original capacity. It's still more than enough for what we use it for and I am expecting we'll see another 5-6 years before the battery becomes a concern. At that point I would have no issue with a $3k charge to have a nearly new pack in it to get another 7+ year cycle out of it. I have no idea where you got $18k for a prius replacement? Maybe in 2002 but these days you're looking at $2500USD for a just out of warranty pack replacement on a 2011 Camry Hybrid and Prius V/C. I really can't see hydrogen as a widespread fuel, Everything about it is a pain in the butt. EV's for all their pluses do have some decently sized negatives but it's still lightyears better than petrol/diesel. The only thing I think you might see topple EV's is synthetic methane the Germans are looking into right now, Because of the technology crossover with ISRU space missions and operational pressures of sub-150psi (vs 5000psi for h2) and ease of handling it's getting some serious research and might enter in heavy industry first. Some AU mines were making rumblings about doing onsite fuel production from Solar power and the Sabatier reaction Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Island Time 1,222 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Just so you know wheels, some of us agree 100% with what you said. However, I can also see where IB's point of view is. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Re plastic pollution. We simply need to produce less plastic. Its not environmentally friendly to make, is bad for the environment if/when discarded, and is hard to destroy in an environmentally sound way. Certainly the plastic bags were not the primary issue in the VERY VERY badly polluted areas of the world I've seen. Seems harder plastic - like bottles of all kinds, followed by plastic type cordage and packaging are the biggest issues. Hydrogen powered cars. I know about using it as a fuel for a ICE. So it sounds like some are using it as a "battery" for an electric car. How/what is the conversion process from hydrogen to electrical.?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beccara 25 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Fuel cells, They are called FCV or FCEV and the Toyota Mirai is a good in production for sale car today. Quite a few are being made as lease only as there's concern about the fuel cells lifespan. The Mirai's got a 100k mile warranty so atleast Toyota have some faith in their stack. Almost all are using something called PEM (Proton Exchange Membrane) I've only ever touched fuel cells in a off grid methanol based capacity in telecommunications and they were hugely sensitive to fuel impurity, The primary vendor would ship fuel in from the EU as the Marsden point stuff wasn't upto spec. I think the Hydrogen one's are better but still in the 99.9% purity mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harrytom 642 Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Get a hold of Doc and the Delorean with his flux capacitor. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.