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How so? Ive seen treated kaihikatea, heart kauri, treated sap kauri, macrocarpa. All have been fine, the method and quality of construction is important. Epoxy is better that resourcinal in some respects, detailing, watertraps, ventilalation etc. I would find it hard to believe that Des who was pretty anal about how his name was used and detailing on peoples builds would not be all over that boat.

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I will just repeat my closing comment to Dan_Ger in a PM - Caveat Emptor.

In the case of Balvenie a prospective buyer needs to have the survey undertaken by a surveyor very experienced in this type of construction.

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On the subject of surveys, there doesnt appear to be much in the way of standards given the vast differences in opinions. One surveyor will say it should be bulldozed and the next will say its mint. I know  someone who got a boat for a song after a well known surveyor condemned it, they've been enjoying a very sound boat now for 10 years and toasting that surveyor ever since! Another surveyor started poking a moisture meter into a hull five minutes after the washdown and said it had concerning high moisture levels. Another passed a boat that cost the new owner 50k to repair a leaking deck/gunwale. These are exceptions I hope but its a bit hit and miss out there and  I'm saying know your man before making a decision.

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Agree with Tamure. 

I had a 33 footer surveyed by a very well know surveyor who called me 1/2 way thru the survey and told me not to waste any more money on completing the survey - he wouldn't take the boat out in a bath!

The boat was subsequently bought by another guy who got it surveyed by a different surveyor who said it was fine.

And the surveys were 9 years ago...............I see the yacht wandering around the Hauraki Gulf all the time - the owner says he's had no problems with her.

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I guess it depends on a lot of variables, and your appetite for junk. We only use 2 surveyors, 1 who's pretty tough, and the 2nd is even more discerning.

We have to buy boats for various projects, some very demanding, some pretty straightforward. But I'd rather have someone with a critical eye than a Surveyor with low standards. Even being tough on things we still get a nasty surprise now & then. And when you're caught out in 50 knots one day with a hard day upwind getting the sh*t kicked out of you, do you really want to be wondering about your boat?

They rarely fall apart, but ………………………….

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1 hour ago, Tamure said:

I know  someone who got a boat for a song after a well known surveyor condemned it, they've been enjoying a very sound boat now for 10 years and toasting that surveyor ever since!

There’s a 50 something footer up here went thru a very similar process ....they only ever sail it under Genoa on nice days for some reason ? 

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Agreed BK, boats are usually tougher than their crews, but there are exceptions. As you said, in heavy conditions, the last thing you need to be worried about is if the boat is going to have a structural failure.....😱

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6 hours ago, Tamure said:

How so? Ive seen treated kaihikatea, heart kauri, treated sap kauri, macrocarpa. All have been fine, the method and quality of construction is important. Epoxy is better that resourcinal in some respects, detailing, watertraps, ventilalation etc. I would find it hard to believe that Des who was pretty anal about how his name was used and detailing on peoples builds would not be all over that boat.

I was talking to Barry Jones today (we are marina neighbours) about edging on plywood (I have a plywood locker door that has sucked up some moisture as it does not have edging on the end grain) , he said that treated timbers can still go soft over time if they are in a damp/wet environment. He said heart kauri was an exception and as we know even it can be susceptible to dry rot if fresh water gets in its end grain.

Des produced very good designs but he did not supervise the construction of boats built by others. There are plenty of Twilights  (and other wooden boats from that era) around with soft decks and other problems and Waimanu's loss shows how there can be hidden problems.

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26 minutes ago, marinheiro said:

I was talking to Barry Jones today (we are marina neighbours) about edging on plywood (I have a plywood locker door that has sucked up some moisture as it does not have edging on the end grain) , he said that treated timbers can still go soft over time if they are in a damp/wet environment. He said heart kauri was an exception and as we know even it can be susceptible to dry rot if fresh water gets in its end grain.

Des produced very good designs but he did not supervise the construction of boats built by others. There are plenty of Twilights  (and other wooden boats from that era) around with soft decks and other problems and Waimanu's loss shows how there can be hidden problems.

Agree, Designers rarely supervise Construction. Look at all those Given powercats, built by Silver Tiger! Great design, built by gib stopping labourers! One of NZ boatbuilding's great horror stories. 

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2 hours ago, marinheiro said:

I was talking to Barry Jones today (we are marina neighbours) about edging on plywood (I have a plywood locker door that has sucked up some moisture as it does not have edging on the end grain) , he said that treated timbers can still go soft over time if they are in a damp/wet environment. He said heart kauri was an exception and as we know even it can be susceptible to dry rot if fresh water gets in its end grain.

Des produced very good designs but he did not supervise the construction of boats built by others. There are plenty of Twilights  (and other wooden boats from that era) around with soft decks and other problems and Waimanu's loss shows how there can be hidden problems.

Plenty of anecdotes about Des visiting some builds to make sure the windows were spot on etc, cant comment on specific boats. As you say treated timber can go soft (I've seen it personally) but it's an exception and probably other factors come into it, if you put enough CCA into pine for example you can build a wharf out of it! Heart kauri like any timber is susceptible to delignification through bad electrics, it can also get brittle with age and loses strength. Glued multi skin hull construction should be viewed more as a modern composite. Provided its sealed preferably with lots of epoxy and designed well it should retain integrity indefinitely. Water ingress is the enemy. 

I firmly believe that those 70's timber boats are the under appreciated classics of NZ boatbuilding (well at least some of them :) )

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16 hours ago, Bad Kitty said:

Agree, Designers rarely supervise Construction. Look at all those Given powercats, built by Silver Tiger! Great design, built by gib stopping labourers! One of NZ boatbuilding's great horror stories. 

BK, I think you are being a bit unkind to Gib Stoppers there, most of them take some pride in their work. Really feel for anyone stuck with one of those cats, absolutely disgraceful what went on!

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53 minutes ago, Wayne-o said:

Bad Kitty, who are the two surveyors you use?

Also, interested in what people say about fijian kauri, as used in this Dickson 45 https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boats-marine/yachts/keeler/auction-2587783128.htm  Faster growing and softer than kauri, and apparently used alongside nz kauri in a triple skin build.

PM me a phone number if you want a chat, 

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21 hours ago, Tamure said:

Plenty of anecdotes about Des visiting some builds to make sure the windows were spot on etc, cant comment on specific boats. As you say treated timber can go soft (I've seen it personally) but it's an exception and probably other factors come into it, if you put enough CCA into pine for example you can build a wharf out of it! Heart kauri like any timber is susceptible to delignification through bad electrics, it can also get brittle with age and loses strength. Glued multi skin hull construction should be viewed more as a modern composite. Provided its sealed preferably with lots of epoxy and designed well it should retain integrity indefinitely. Water ingress is the enemy. 

I firmly believe that those 70's timber boats are the under appreciated classics of NZ boatbuilding (well at least some of them :) )

My father bought the plug used for the production Townson 34s and finished it off himself. Although he never got a visit from Des, he did get a phone call regarding the shape of the cockpit coamings and a request to redo them to the exact design. The relationship then completely degenerated when Des found out that dad had installed the engine under the cockpit and not up by the mast. From my recollection, the method of construction was not necessarily a problem, rather than how the boat looked. He certainly had his spies out keeping an eye on things.

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8 hours ago, muzled said:

What about this?  Shallow draft, how would it go upwind?

https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=2621272070

Looks like Balvenie the Townson 47 has sold?  It's been delisted from TM.

I heard that too, apparently the crew.org surveying team didnt prevent a well built and proven circumnavigator  from going to an informed and very happy new owner :)

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