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20 minutes ago, Fish said:

With respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I've got a family member who cannot get back. We have been trying to find a way for him to, but with the lack of just about any flights anywhere, and the complete inability to transit in a third country, it hasn't been possible to date. We have even looked at commercial shipping. That was a no go as well.

And, what problem is it you are trying to solve? or are you just being red meat to the click bait media, with all of these alarmist stories about quarantine?

Save the ad hominem attack that I "don't know what I am talking about".
Unless you want to disclose what level of knowledge one should have before they post on a particular subject?
That too would be subjective anyway.


We just disagree. That is all.  I respect your family members plight, but a line has to be drawn somewhere.  
And my contention is, your family member should not be allowed back into the country.
You need not worry though as the Government won't listen to me.

Mind you , I don't think I am the Lone Ranger is stating that enough is enough with this border fiasco, and that it is time to shut up shop...for now.

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The border can not be shut to NZers. It is a basic fundamental and legal right to be able to return to your home country. It is absolute rubbish to say people should have come home earlier as there ar

yes prime minister what you need to know and when you need to know it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX45hc0aZt0

So, is National going to use the Canterybury Earthquake Recovery Agency CERA, to secure the border? CERA worked out real well for Chch... the definition of a beuracratic love fest. Dear god, some

Yes, we disagree. That can be a good thing.

But what do you want to achieve by completely closing the boarder?

Bearing in mind that arrivals are now an absolute trickle compared to normal. Also bearing in mind the govt has gotten the airlines to substantially limit the numbers of available seats into the country. It looks like a quota system, without it being called a quota system.

I would have no issue in citizens being stopped from leaving, so that they do't then need to return again. The same applying for residents, unless they intend to leave and not come back. None of this going off shore for what ever reason and coming back again a month later.

I think the border can be tightened up more, and given time, the great bureaucratic machine will get that sorted. We are always still going to need freight aircraft, and I think the management of air crew could be a whole lot tighter. And ships crew. POAL took it open themselves to ban ships crew from getting off and randomly strolling around. I would have thought the govt would have sorted that sort of thing out, at all of our ports.

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22 minutes ago, Fish said:

Yes, we disagree. That can be a good thing.

But what do you want to achieve by completely closing the boarder?

Bearing in mind that arrivals are now an absolute trickle compared to normal. Also bearing in mind the govt has gotten the airlines to substantially limit the numbers of available seats into the country. It looks like a quota system, without it being called a quota system.

I would have no issue in citizens being stopped from leaving, so that they do't then need to return again. The same applying for residents, unless they intend to leave and not come back. None of this going off shore for what ever reason and coming back again a month later.

I think the border can be tightened up more, and given time, the great bureaucratic machine will get that sorted. We are always still going to need freight aircraft, and I think the management of air crew could be a whole lot tighter. And ships crew. POAL took it open themselves to ban ships crew from getting off and randomly strolling around. I would have thought the govt would have sorted that sort of thing out, at all of our ports.

Well Fish, it would be a temporary measure.  Of course at some stage we will have to reopen.

Also, at some stage, a decision is going to have to be made that we either live with the virus, i.e go the Newstalkb ZB Hosking, Woodham almost et all way of just letting it rip, and if you die you die, or - we close the. border temporarily - see how we go over the next few months, "take stock" if you will, and make a decision then.

I just think this virus is just too "fresh" to keep allowing people in at the moment.

However, I think we are all in agreement that the blinking testing with the Border staff absolutely must be compulsory.

So Fish, we probably are not as far away from each other's ideals as we think....and I will concur there are various ways to skin a cat.

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So, I've been thinking about this. This govt appears to be very good at doing something that would be completely outrageous if they told anyone they were doing it, but manage to do it anyway...

A good example is the effects of quantitative easing and how it dramatically widens the gap between rich and poor (from the Judith Collins save National thread), but the media simply haven't mentioned the $100 billion dollar bond buy up (RB QE programme).

I think in reality, what this govt has done is effectively close the border anyway, without actually closing the border:

1) They have (somehow) gotten the airlines to stop selling all the seats on their inbound flights. This is, on the face of it, to manage capacity in MIQ. But with the sharp reduction in actual flights, the total numbers of people crossing the border is substantially restricted

2) There is this big hoohaa of residents or dependents and partners if residents and citizens that aren't residents themselves, can't enter the country unless they are accompanied by said person This means that people in NZ need to fly out to accompany their partner back into the country... Now remember, 'Yes Minister' is a documentary, not a comedy. This would appear to be a conscious decision to make it so damn hard for people to get into the country that half of them don't bother (the non-citizen ones).

3) The outright lack of connecting flights, and the absolute inability to stop over anywhere makes it fully impossible to travel into NZ from just about anywhere accept Australia.

Then, if you want to get into NZ, you have to get the three issues above to line up at the same time, AND have the money to pay the now very expensive air fares, AND take the risk that any one of your connecting flights wont fly, and you wont get you ticket refunded, or if you do, they wont pay out until 2022 or something.

From personal experience with my family member, he has decided it is actually easier to stay in a country with some of the worst C19 stats in the world, with a President that is actively suppressing the true number of cases, who's economy is stuffed, where corruption is rampant, the police shoot first, and don't even bother asking questions afterwards, and large portions of society are on the verge of an armed uprising, it is easier to stay put and put up with all of that, than it is to actually get back into NZ.

So Zozza, I actual think, by any measure of practicality, the border is basically closed already. It is open just enough that people don't think the govt is making arbitrary decisions and controlling their lives, but in reality, I'm fairly sure this govt has made arbitrary decisions and is controlling peoples lives.

I'm not sure if that makes you feel any better? But after giving it some thought, that is what appears to be going on with our border anyway.

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1 hour ago, Fish said:

...From personal experience with my family member, he has decided it is actually easier to stay in a country with some of the worst C19 stats in the world, with a President that is actively suppressing the true number of cases, who's economy is stuffed, where corruption is rampant, the police shoot first, and don't even bother asking questions afterwards, and large portions of society are on the verge of an armed uprising, it is easier to stay put and put up with all of that, than it is to actually get back into NZ...

Funnily enough i have a family member who very recently went back to USA to live.  She is doing better there than she would have here and hasn't been shot by police or recruited by antifa or molested by a crazy orange man. 

She was even bloody sailing and paddle boarding the other day. Don't believe everything our very biased media tells you.

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As I have said elsewhere,They were told back in February/March to get home now. Few took the offer of extra flights.I believe or my opinion is .Most wanted to stay on and see what happens as its got worst they want to return.Tough! Leave the border closed for a month and see if it clears up then maybe re open. The Govt is now lying/twisting this and that because they have stuffed up due to procedures not being followed by staff. To be fair though,I can show a new employee our procedures/policies and they do follow when holding their hand but once solo they take short cuts until caught out.

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The border can not be shut to NZers. It is a basic fundamental and legal right to be able to return to your home country. It is absolute rubbish to say people should have come home earlier as there are endless, genuine reasons/commitments why many won't have been able to. 

Put yourselves in their shoes. Imagine having to leave careers, property, assets, family etc to head back to NZ because politicians are saying there is a bad flu going around.

The issue isn't with the people returning but with the lack of effective border management even though as yet there is no link to the current cases. 

I would hate to be the last one to the liferaft with some of you. I suspect I would be recieving a paddle to the side of the head and told to F off if your chance of survival was even slightly diminished.

 

 

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9 hours ago, bazzathemammoth said:

Funnily enough i have a family member who very recently went back to USA to live.  She is doing better there than she would have here and hasn't been shot by police or recruited by antifa or molested by a crazy orange man. 

She was even bloody sailing and paddle boarding the other day. Don't believe everything our very biased media tells you.

Agree with your sentiments. In this case, he can't actually physically get home / back to NZ. There is a substantial risk of getting stuck in a third country for an indefinite amount of time waiting for a flight. This is the issue of flight cancellations / denial of boarding due to constantly changing visa requirements etc.

There is the added issue of a job, lease on apartment, oh, and all his worldly possessions. He is currently working where he is (contract expires in Jan) and if he came home, would be straight onto the dole, which, for a late middle aged professional, is something he is not comfortable with - despite repeated offers from family we will look after him / put him up etc.

But, I honestly think the actual number of people making it home is so small, this isn't the problem. Appropriate management around the border, border staff, airline crew etc is the problem. We are always going to need some sort of connection with the outside world, mainly by freight aircraft, for pharmaceuticals, mail, and all that sh*t you guys are buying on Alibaba... oh, and to export some high value product, to keep the regions and economy alive. Its management of the 'essential workers' involved in keeping the economy going, not returnees...

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