Coastal Divisions

[JK 28]

Picking up on comments made in other threads, maybe a couple of sports boats divisions and a widening of the PHRF boundaries for the divisions would go some way to evening up the playing field and limit the impact of the differential in upwind/downwind performance between the sports and cruiser/racer boats. There would be no need to rely on a Southerly or Northerly to dictate if a boat could be happy with its result within a division. Appreciate it would be more work to assign people to divisions, there would be some boats on the cusp, and some not happy where they get assigned, but it may level out the playing field in each division a bit.

 

Having sailed alongside Geralda in the middle part of the race for the last two years I have seen how much effort they put in so using them here as an example and not taking anything away from their performance, but they ended up with a 2hr+ lead in Div5 whereas another two hour blanket covered 50% of the remaining 27 boats in the division. If boats were split more along type then Geralda's performance should still have been enough to give them a win - but against the likes of R n B, What's News, Bouy Racer, Mercenary, Erazer...

 

Looking at the finish times for all boats on PHRF there is a spread of around 100 places in most current divisions so would appear to be plenty of room for skill & tactics to provide close results within a wider PHRF range. It does appear that within type the PHRF handicapping is reasonably OK with extremes such as Wired & Geralda finishing around 45seconds apart on handicap despite 6hours difference in finish times & Pacific Sundance and Crac a Jac 5.5hrs apart on the water & 2.25minutes on handicap.

[Guest]

The two handed boys and girls need a separate start, amongst 150 odd other boats its a disaster waiting to happen. Since its growing in popularity then why not?

 

The fact of the matter is when you are all 2 up you give a little tiny bit more room in consideration of the limits of what 2 can do in a hurry but the fully crewed yachts dont make any allowance for that in the start. And they shouldnt have to be trying to identify 2-handed yachts to give them a little more room in a big start like that anyway.

 

My 2 cents.....

[Fish 0]

Two very good comments.

Agree going two handed on a busy fully crewed start line is sketchy.

 

As for divsion splits, Charlatan, weighs 6,000kg, 2nd on line and handicap in Div 5, while first and third where Elliot sports boats, esp Gerelda, weighing 600kgs (!) and 6.42m LOA. So we're playing with sports boats with completely different upwind / downwind characteristics. The weather gods seal up the race before the start, so many sports guys say if its on the nose they wont go, where I would relish that.

 

We're best suited to playing with the 'traditional displacement' boats such as the Stewart 34's & Farr 1020's, but they are also both split into different divisions around class instead of PHRF.

 

The Simrad model of Sports boat div and 'traditional displacement' is good, and they also start on the same line, so you can still have a race, if not in the same division.

 

One last thing, IRC is shithouse. We really need two divisions split along the lines of Premier / Corinthian. There is no way Charlatan as a 25yo kauri boat can compete with Limit, Wired, Ran Tan etc. There are Corinthian type boats out there with IRC to play with, but they way things are going if you don't have carbon sails and a professional driver don't bother with IRC. I've supported IRC for the last two years because of the number of people that moan about performance aspects of PHRF. At $400 a handicap I wont be supporting IRC any more, unless some really attention is paid to the common or garden variaty boat.

[Guest]

The Simrad model of Sports boat div and 'traditional displacement' is good, and they also start on the same line, so you can still have a race, if not in the same division.

Slight disagreement with you there Mr Fish. Being a tail end charlie boat in the Simrad Sporty fleet we are constantly under attack from the 'traditional displacement' fleet. Why they do that I don't know but I can tell you it's seriously frustrating having to piss around shaking them before we can get back to our own race.

[MrWolf 0]

Picking up on comments made in other threads, maybe a couple of sports boats divisions and a widening of the PHRF boundaries for the divisions would go some way to evening up the playing field and limit the impact of the differential in upwind/downwind performance between the sports and cruiser/racer boats. There would be no need to rely on a Southerly or Northerly to dictate if a boat could be happy with its result within a division. Appreciate it would be more work to assign people to divisions, there would be some boats on the cusp, and some not happy where they get assigned, but it may level out the playing field in each division a bit.

 

Having sailed alongside Geralda in the middle part of the race for the last two years I have seen how much effort they put in so using them here as an example and not taking anything away from their performance, but they ended up with a 2hr+ lead in Div5 whereas another two hour blanket covered 50% of the remaining 27 boats in the division. If boats were split more along type then Geralda's performance should still have been enough to give them a win - but against the likes of R n B, What's News, Bouy Racer, Mercenary, Erazer...

 

Looking at the finish times for all boats on PHRF there is a spread of around 100 places in most current divisions so would appear to be plenty of room for skill & tactics to provide close results within a wider PHRF range. It does appear that within type the PHRF handicapping is reasonably OK with extremes such as Wired & Geralda finishing around 45seconds apart on handicap despite 6hours difference in finish times & Pacific Sundance and Crac a Jac 5.5hrs apart on the water & 2.25minutes on handicap.

 

At the end of the day its up to those racing in Divisions 1 thru 5 how they want the race to run.

If they want the division split to be changed along lines of more similar boats in the same division, and how they want the starts to be done, (i.e. which divisions start at which time).

I'm sure it is possible to start the 2 handed division second start on the multi start line if that's what everyone wants.

 

The Coastal is the biggest keelboat race held every year, and it is their race.

[Guest]

That sounds like a very sensible solution for 2-handed start Mr Wolf.

 

EE

[Fish 0]

The Simrad model of Sports boat div and 'traditional displacement' is good, and they also start on the same line, so you can still have a race, if not in the same division.

Slight disagreement with you there Mr Fish. Being a tail end charlie boat in the Simrad Sporty fleet we are constantly under attack from the 'traditional displacement' fleet. Why they do that I don't know but I can tell you it's seriously frustrating having to piss around shaking them before we can get back to our own race.

 

Fair comment on the start line / time, but what do you think of the basic principle of splitting the fleet along sporty and displacement lines? I reckon its the best way of getting closely matched boats, in both performance charateritics, and handicap, into the same divsion.

 

Giving it some thought, the fleets are plenty big enough to have separate starts split down those lines.

[Changed 10]

Disagree with the split start. We like to compete in both the two handed division and the div5. A segregated start would remove that option. The start is important but the race is 120 miles long so plenty of time to make up, or cock up. We've completed the Coastal, the Tauranga and the White Island races in the last two years and our results probably reflect our capability both in the two handed and fully crewed fleets!!

[Guest]

Fair comment on the start line / time, but what do you think of the basic principle of splitting the fleet along sporty and displacement lines? I reckon its the best way of getting closely matched boats, in both performance charateritics, and handicap, into the same divsion.

 

Giving it some thought, the fleets are plenty big enough to have separate starts split down those lines.

What's the definition of 'sporty'? Looks, displacement, power to weight, has a prod or doesn't, a very tricky word to put a description too.

 

The target should be that every boat races the entire way amongst pile of others so close you can see the bloodshot of their eyes, all in the same Div. If that means sporty 20fters racing with clunky 50's so be it.

 

It's a tricky one and I don't see the CC as being the race to work things like that out with, the environmental input into the results is huge. And we all don't race using a pure performance based H/c system so another semi-wild card to try and work in there as well. What we have is probably as good as we'll get without a large re-working and I don't see that happening.

 

Agree about knot splitting the 2-Up's out to a separate start. To wide a boat range to make a matching fleet.

[Murky 1]

The target should be that every boat races the entire way amongst pile of others so close you can see the bloodshot of their eyes, all in the same Div. If that means sporty 20fters racing with clunky 50's so be it.

Interesting comment. We spent most of the trip in close proximity to other 40s including one of identical hull design which was breathing down our neck the whole way. As it should be and very enjoyable.

 

However also in the same bunch were what looked like a 60+ foot cruising boat running an MPS-style sail and also Cotton Blossom carrying a gennaker impossibly high inshore of us. We spent a lot of time speculating as to the quality of the catering and bar service on the cruising boat but wished that both of these would have shown the good grace to sail to their age and state of their interiors.

 

It is a race that has the potential to mix up the results - on the water as well as on handicap.

[Fish 0]

We spent a lot of time speculating as to the quality of the catering and bar service on the cruising boat but wished that both of these would have shown the good grace to sail to their age and state of their interiors.

.

 

The sailing instructiosn for the cruising div should read:

Roasts may only be prepared following the prepatory signal. All roasts must be prepared and cooked whilst underway. No pre-cooked chickens from the supermarket.

Pototoes peeled by hand.

For vessels over 12m LOA - only real gravy, no packet stuff.

Beverage regulations require champain to be held at 10-12 degree C, white wines between 5-8 degrees C, two ice cubes per G&T.

Any contravention of the above regulations requires an immediate embargo of the use of dish washers - all dishes to be washed by hand.

[Fish 0]

Fair comment on the start line / time, but what do you think of the basic principle of splitting the fleet along sporty and displacement lines? I reckon its the best way of getting closely matched boats, in both performance charateritics, and handicap, into the same divsion.

 

Giving it some thought, the fleets are plenty big enough to have separate starts split down those lines.

What's the definition of 'sporty'? Looks, displacement, power to weight, has a prod or doesn't, a very tricky word to put a description too.

 

The target should be that every boat races the entire way amongst pile of others so close you can see the bloodshot of their eyes, all in the same Div. If that means sporty 20fters racing with clunky 50's so be it.

 

It's a tricky one and I don't see the CC as being the race to work things like that out with, the environmental input into the results is huge. And we all don't race using a pure performance based H/c system so another semi-wild card to try and work in there as well. What we have is probably as good as we'll get without a large re-working and I don't see that happening.

 

Agree about knot splitting the 2-Up's out to a separate start. To wide a boat range to make a matching fleet.

There are ways of defining 'sports boat', i.e. length to displacement, but I tend to agree with your overall sentiment. i.e. there is not a generally accepted definition. Works well in the Simrad, but the Coastal, hmmm

 

If the purpose of good divisions is to get close racing, then I'd look at the start times. If you want close racing, start everyone in one start - that would be exciting... Practicallities and safety will pop up straight away. Currently the divisions are offset, div 1, then 2 with 4, and 3 with 5, but with 1020's in 3, and Y88's, R930's and S34's all in 4.

 

I assume 2 & 4 start together to get a natural seperation quickly, but if you started adjacent divisions together, i.e. 2 with 3, and 4 with 5, you'd get closer racing. the big question is, do guys want to tangle with boats their not up against for placings? And how much do the one design guys want to tangle with others?

 

There are always races within races, and there are always boats who have favoured conditions. Currently there are boats that are becoming extremely favourable in certain conditions and not others. Is there a need to group those boats together, do those boats want to be grouped together, or is that just part of the Coastal?

 

It is still good racing as it is.

[MrWolf 0]

Basically, 2 start with 4, and then 3 with 5 because that is what those guys wanted.

Originally it was a mass start, then div 2 got peeved that div 1 would run them over off the start, they preferred to start 10 minutes later on their own (were given the option of 5 minutes later but chose 10), likewise then div 3 got peeved in the same start as div 2 that they would get run over, etc, so div 3 opted for 10 minutes later than div 2.

 

I would think that consideration could be given for more monohull divisions, maybe with different phrf cut offs than now, or if there were enough like minded canters or canters and sporties or whatever, that they could have their own division.

I think the organisers would like the divisions to be relatively even in numbers,

 

for example there are 6 mono divisions, 1 to 5 and eight with approxiametely 30 in each division (a little less in eight), but if there were 7 mono divisions that would be around 25 in each division (still a great number), so if say there were 25 odd similar boats that made up the type of division JK is talking about I'm sure that organisers would look at it.

[Zoe 8]

Keep it coming...

 

I think that ideally from a logistics point of view, the divisions would be reorganized to provide better racing, without adding more divisions. Any thoughts along those lines?

 

Personally I'd like to see an overall prize for first on PHRF.

 

I like the sports/conventional idea and was one of the instigators of that in the SIMRAD but I also find it hard to get my head around for the Coastal because who decides what is a sport style boat and what isn't?

 

I'll make sure the powers that be have seen this thread. In the last newsletter they also asked for general constructive feedback... to ccinfo@coastalclassic.co.nz

[Guest]

Does it really matter if a boat is labelled a Sporty, a displacement, Chicken Roaster or (as I just love the Wolfisum) a pig rooter? I would think the ideal is you race in a 'group', for lack of a better word, so you can see how your doing during the race. In the CC, and the Simrad, many just sail the course and have to wait for the results to be published to get any idea how they went good, bad or ugly.

 

Sure there is often a boat or 2 that does a runner for many assorted reasons but I'd think most would prefer to know the boats around them are the boats they are racing against for the goodies. That's a huge pile more fun, performance enhancing, exciting, skill increasing, tactical and a challenge than just sailing against a clock or some spec way off in the distance or even further, as happens frequently in the Simrad sporty fleet as just one example.

 

About the only way I see something like that happening is some poor sucker/s sitting down and going 'Right boat XXX goes thru the water at the same speed as boat YYY and ZZZ, put those 3 into Div ??' type of a deal.

 

The rating component and lack of relativity frequent updating of PHRF I doubt will give us that close grouping. Actually that's probably why this discussion is even happening. A pure performance H/c system updated frequently would more than likely close the gaps we see today. Dare I mention the multis, their close H/c results and how they don't run under PHRF. Maybe we all need to move to using Racetrack numbers?

 

Dunno really, bit of a tricky one isn't it.

 

There are ways of defining 'sports boat', i.e. length to displacement, but I tend to agree with your overall sentiment. i.e. there is not a generally accepted definition. Works well in the Simrad, but the Coastal, hmmm

That Div is becoming more 2 divs inside the same one with all the changes to boats over the last wee while. The racing inside those two sub-divs is good but as a whole Div, knot really.

[JK 28]

You could have two "Sports" divisions, one aimed at the full on sports boats & one for the pimped older boats, and then widen out the PHRF bands on the other divisions to reduce the number & so keeping the number of divisions the same as current. As for deciding who goes in what division, I guess it would have to be up to the person who puts in the entry, but if they have their own division to play in then why would they want to enter something not aimed at themselves? I dare say the entries would be up for public scrutiny and comment through these forums.

 

With the broader PHRF ratings for each division it is much more likely that the boats around you are likely to be in your division and therefore the ones you are racing against. And it is not the frequency of the PHRF updates that kicked off the conversation so much as the race is in one direction. If your PHRF gets calculated on say races around the gulf which are essentially a circle the upwind/downwind factors cancel each other out, then you race the coastal & it is pretty much all downhill, or uphill as case may be, but one type of yacht or the other will be unduly favoured. Better then to have each type in their own division & kick the wind direction out of the equation.

[Kiteroa 8]

How about a 'Movable ballast' division. Since there's a few boats that would qualify now, why not. There is a huge disparity between upwind and down wind performance of these boats, and in reality, if it's 25-30kts and up-wind the smaller canting boats probably aren't going to race, They will be on the flipside and will be unlikely to sail to their rating against the other longer heavier boats in their current division.

[Guest]

PHRF is a performance handicap based on results of several races a boat takes part in over time.

Most of these races include a few corners and therefore a bit of wndward work and some stuff off the wind.

This thread has come about after the Coastal Clasic where a couple of light displacement keel boats ( Not Sport Boats ) cleaned up as they did last year.

It has been pointed out on Crew. before that the Coastal is a one way track favouring a particular type of boat depending on wind direction.

The overall result showed that the hadicapper got it close amongst the winners.The coditions favoured those boats.

Most experienced owners would know what to expect when looking at the forecast prior to the race start.

Cant see the need for too much change though the two handed guys might have a good point though a mass start would be cool !!

I can remember when the first Young 11 hit the water. It was regarded as LIGHT and then the Pork Chops, Butcher, Crock etc. were regarded as light and fast, and they were then, but they still raced with the Stewart 34's and Townsends in the Coastal and then the same thing happened. The winners were dependent on the conditions. Nothing has changed.!.

I do feel that the small boats in Div one ( Jive and Higher Ground for example ) have a limited chance of winning when up against the likes of the 50 footers weather it is on the wind or off the wind however that could also be a matter of wind strength. No more divisions but perhaps a little re-shuffle..

[Guest]

Keep it coming...

 

 

 

Personally I'd like to see an overall prize for first on PHRF.

Who won this year?

 

I like the sports/conventional idea and was one of the instigators of that in the SIMRAD but I also find it hard to get my head around for the Coastal because who decides what is a sport style boat and what isn't?

 

 

The owner

 

I'll make sure the powers that be have seen this thread. In the last newsletter they also asked for general constructive feedback... to ccinfo@coastalclassic.co.nz

 

Why not a mass start, Multis and two handed on the outside, everfyone else on the inside. Divisions are scored and get prizes, plus an overall winner.

[Guest]

Thats what I was thinking - separate line not separate time for the 2 handers although T-man will probably disagree cos he likes to compete in both Div 5 and 2 up but as he also points out (above) the race is 120 miles long so time to make up or cock up and he is a legend in both fully crewed and 2 up in AKL-TGA, White Island and Coastal anyway so it doesn't affect him... (!!)...until the year he gets cleaned up by 10 tonne cruiser on the start while they are below checking the roast.