Coastal Divisions

[Zoe 8]

Keep it coming...

 

 

 

Personally I'd like to see an overall prize for first on PHRF.

Who won this year?

 

I like the sports/conventional idea and was one of the instigators of that in the SIMRAD but I also find it hard to get my head around for the Coastal because who decides what is a sport style boat and what isn't?

 

 

The owner

 

I'll make sure the powers that be have seen this thread. In the last newsletter they also asked for general constructive feedback... to ccinfo@coastalclassic.co.nz

 

Why not a mass start, Multis and two handed on the outside, everfyone else on the inside. Divisions are scored and get prizes, plus an overall winner.

 

 

How would you resolve it when Mr Farr 1020 decides his boat is a sport boat?

[Guest]

You have too low an opinion of our owners. Yes there is a possibility for some one to try and swap divisions to gain a piece of silverware, but anyone that stupid can have the silver ware coz at that point it is entirely meaningless IMHO.

On a more positive note, make everyone declare the division they wish to be in 2 weeks before the race, anything aft of the beam and said 1020 will get creamed, 2 weeks is far enough out to be unable to call the weather.

 

But I honestly think all owners simply want good fair racing, and will group themselves accordingly. Anyone who tries to milk the system to get a prize is a dick and we will all know it.

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

Sports boats generally our current crop of anyway do not have any accomodation or pretend to .

[Zoe 8]

David, hmmm... I think that you are probably right but those one or two (probably per division) will make life pretty difficult for everyone. It has to be reasonably clear cut to work. Either you are or you aren't eligible for a division.

 

The integrity of results is fairly important too when you have divisional sponsors contributing fairly valuable prizes.

 

(NZ Rat sorry I wasn't been clear I didn't mean sports boats just sporty style keelers - light, prods, etc)

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

there will always be issues how do you decide a division you have stewart 34s , demon 10s , townson 32 and 34s , Then also in that group is Light boats ,whether will create the luck of the draw but sports boats should have their own division as they are showing now just how quick they are ,I dont think anyone will ever get the Division parmeters correct as it just is too hard and will allways be unfair on some one .But that is life

[Zoe 8]

So NZRat if you put 'sports' boats into a different division, how do you decide which boats are sports boats, and who decides? What are the parameters?

 

I think it's a really good idea but they'll only consider it if it's actually workable... so I'm really keen to see what you and others can propose here.

 

Right now it's done purely on PHRF. This obviously has its failings when it comes to 30 foot swing keelers racing against Lion NZ but at least it's clear cut.

 

Zoe

[Guest]

 

The integrity of results is fairly important too when you have divisional sponsors contributing fairly valuable prizes.

)

 

Hmmm I wonder how many competitors are really excited about the value of the prizes? Anyone? My guess is they are a pleasant bonus, but most do the race fo rthe sake of doing the race, if you know what I mean.

 

The way I see it working is you publish rough guidelines for a division (PHRF limits or whatever) then the competitor chooses where they want to sit i.e.- who they want to race against. Plus 6 boats and there's a class prize as well. But everybody starts at 10 am and there is an overall winner.

 

If someone wants to be a dick and manipulate that to gt a pretty prize I'm sure they would hear all about it and probably not try it twice.

Hell the way it is now you can play the system to improve your chances to a huge extent anyway.

[Guest Saturday Night Special]

Now that is a hard one.At present we have what i would deem 6 proper SPORTS KEELERS Overload ,Orbit, deep throttle , Karma Police ,tongue twister and Smak They all really have no accomadtion this is termed in most rules as having to accomodate 60% crew they have minimal headroom.and a floppy keel they could be fitted with bullshit accomodation but that would come back to the scruitineer's decission

[MrWolf 0]

I think there are a lot who would like to be in a division in which they have a chance of a line result, at least in one set of conditions.

 

If the keelboat divisions are to change so that more similar boats are in a separate division I don't think the owners should decide but rather I'd suggest that the NZMYC would rely on MarkM to group the divisions in the fairest/best possible way.

[Zoe 8]

What if the PHRF bands were widened so there were two or three PHRF 'bands' instead of five, but within each of these there was a division for 'sports' keelers and heavier boats.

 

So you raced within your PHRF division but only with boats of a similar type.

[Zoe 8]

I'd better make it clear that I'm just throwing ideas into the ring I don't actually have anything much to do with how this part of it works... but I do reckon it needs a bit of tweaking

[markm 30]

It's probably doable Zoe using a combination of dlr and sail displacement ratios but I don't think destined to make people happy.

 

If you had say two LD divisions of 30 boats each, well there's going to be about 50 boats that will argue you got it wrong for them specifically. Then there's the other people who'll suggest a few more boats you should move.

 

If you cut it down in size to say 20 boats, then they'll be about 20 boats all telling you that your shutting them out of the main race and about 15 of them will also tell you that they've still no chance of winning. Their point will have some merit.

 

If you cut it down to say just the canters, well that's very much a "I don't want to race you" division, it's happened overseas but I don't think to be encouraged.

 

And then if you (rightly) add an overall winner, even with an LD division(s) people will be telling you they didn't have a fair crack at first prize.

 

Apologies, I suspect I seem a little cynical.

 

It wouldn't be particularly easy, but I'd suggest the better approach is to have an upwind and a downwind handicap for boats and the PRO nominate the handicap to be applied just prior to race start.

 

And to open another can of worms, you could do worse than compulsory safety and measurement checks for the top two in every division. Nothing like knowing you'll be checked if you do well to encourage people to be 'thorough' in their preparations and declarations.

[Clipper 343]

If you cut it down to say just the canters, well that's very much a "I don't want to race you" division, it's happened overseas but I don't think to be encouraged.

 

How is excluding canters different from excluding multis, or wind surfers or kite surfers?

 

I agree that different types of boats are often next to impossible to handicap fairly. Thats a big part of why there is multi and mono racing.

The canters are approaching (or passing) multi performance, makes perfect sense to put them in their own division.

 

As for those boats that need to run their engines to cant their keels and turn their winches, why do even let them race?

[markm 30]

You're right but not right clipper. As an example, from Westhaven there are enough multis to have their own division so they do, in say Weiti or Kerikeri there isn't, so they don't. I'd suggest 15 is a realistic minimum in a race like CC for a separate division.

[Rhys 0]

I think that the issue is that the Coastal is run under PHRF, which attempts to even out a boat’s performance in all conditions when the actual race is typically anything but a full range of conditions. In What’s News, I don’t think we could ever sail to our PHRF in the Coastal as if it’s upwind, we get killed, while down wind, it’s a gimme. Different story in say the SSANZ where the courses have a few corners.

 

In all the racing we do, we know who we should beat and who should beat us and in that way, we can gauge how we actually did. To get beaten in the Coastal but a caravan in a 30knot northerly doesn’t disappoint me too much and doing well with a honking southerly is a little hollow.

 

To improve, I’d either group all boats based on whether their strength is upwind or downwind, give them each a single number rating and let all the LD boat’s get cained in a northerly together and the caravans can all race neck and neck downwind and together.

 

Alternatively, as I reckon that half the fleet only get a PHRF for the Coastal, get two Coastal only handicaps, one for upwind and one for downwind. That way, if we beat a caravan, we can at least convince ourselves that we’re better sailors??

[bushman 12]

i think that beau has a very valid point the natural evolution of boat design can't be stopped , I was racing on a boat called Tramp a 1/2 tonner ( if any remember those days, 70's ) it was considered a hot boat when launched and we won many races but when the light farrs and whitings appeared we were like a fishing trawler but we still raced ... it's just how the game is played look at those farrs and whitings now and they are nice cruising boats .... but a lot of old multis still go fast

[Guest]

Maybe a sort of promotion/relegation thing. If you finish in the top 3 (random picked number) of your Div next year you race in the Div above that one. At the other end the bottom 3 drop into the Div below.

 

That would add a bit of spice to each end of each Div.

 

Looking at this years results -

The top 3 of Div 2 would have finished mid fleet Div 1.

The bottom 3 of Div 2 would have finished mid fleet of Div 3.

And it continues pretty much along those lines as you work down.

 

The stand out most mismatch fleet is Div 4 where the top 3 would have been bloody close to the money in Div 3. The Div 4 line winner would have actually been the 2nd boat home in Div 3, 3rd home would have been the winner of Div 5

 

Once at the top say like Vodaboat, next year they race but without one arma or if it's Alfa, they do it 2 handed

[Fish 0]

And to open another can of worms, you could do worse than compulsory safety and measurement checks for the top two in every division. Nothing like knowing you'll be checked if you do well to encourage people to be 'thorough' in their preparations and declarations.

Yes Please!

There is a considerable amount of money, and time, to comply PROPERLY with Cat 3, add to the cost of gear the weight of certain items and there is motivation to 'cut corners'. Add to that boats that only do one Cat 3 race a year (the Coastal) and had a Cat 3 inspection 3 years ago.. well...

[Guest]

Hey Clipper

And while you chuck the canters out why not add the 50ft heavy displacement boats , just in case we get 30knotts from the North west !!

 

Get Real.

[Guest]

I like KM's promotion/relegation idea